A recent essay I wrote for The Philosophers’ Magazine online has, predictably perhaps, generated a minor storm (well, more likely a tempest in a teacup, but still). The piece is what I thought amounted to a mild, substantive criticism of a well reasoned piece by independent philosopher Russell Blackford, entitled Against accommodationism: How science undermines religion. Russell, in turn, was reviewing (very, very positively) the latest book by biologist and New Atheist Jerry Coyne, Faith Versus Fact: Why Science and Religion Are Incompatible. I am a known critic of New Atheism (though myself an atheist) so I figured I’d add my two cents once again.
I have not read Jerry’s book, and I don’t have any intention to read it. I’m sure it is well written and well argued, but my time is currently devoted to projects that I think are more fruitful than atheism and the criticism of religion. That is why my TPM essay was carefully crafted as a response to Blackford, not Coyne. To attempt the latter without having read the book would have been intellectually dishonest.
I began by defining accommodationism: having being accused a number of times of being an accommodationist (a word ominously reminiscent of “collaborationist,” but maybe I’m just paranoid), I think I have a sense of what Blackford, Coyne, and others are reacting to. These authors think that science undermines religion, and that if someone (like me) claims that that is actually not the case (with a huge caveat to come in a minute), then that someone is an accommodationist. And very likely he is also intellectually dishonest, unnecessarily deferential to religion, politically expedient, or all of the above.
I then went into a discussion of Stephen Jay Gould’s (in)famous NOMA (for Non Overlapping MAgisteria) principle, according to which science and religion are “separate magisteria,” one concerned with matters of fact and one with matters of value. Blackford rejects NOMA, and so do I, for reasons I explain in the TPM article.
That said, however, it is simply a gross misreading of the history and meaning of religious practices to claim (as many New Atheists do) that the main business of religion is, or even has been, the production of cosmogonies, thus trespassing into the territory of science. Sure, the Old Testament talks about the origin of humanity in terms of Adam and Eve, while Hindu texts tell us that the world is cyclically created and destroyed every 8.64 billion years. But so what? Even philosophy, early on, made cosmogonic claims, and science has definitely shown than Thales of Miletus was wrong when he thought that the world is made of water. By Blackford’s reasoning, science has also undermined philosophy, then. Except that it hasn’t, because science itself originated from that murky past, eventually becoming the field of human inquiry that is best equipped to tell us how heaven goes. Ever since, both serious philosophers and serious theologians (and a huge number of common religious people) simply got out of that same business.
What, however, is the case is that religions are about ethical teachings and questions of meaning (and providing a sense of community and a social network). Whether those ethical teachings are sound, or the answers provided to the issue of meaning satisfying, needs to be assessed depending on the specifics. But such assessment is a matter of philosophical discourse, and perhaps of human psychology, certainly not of natural science.
I also believe that there is no logical contradiction between accepting all the findings of modern science and believing in a transcendental reality (even though I don’t myself believe in it, for what I take to be sound philosophical reasons). Which is why lots of intelligent people, including lots of scientists, do in fact accept science and believe in a transcendental reality.
Now back to Blackford’s take on Coyne’s book. The first revelatory point comes from this quote: “Note, however, that [Coyne] is concerned with theistic religions that include a personal God who is involved in history. (He is not, for example, dealing with Confucianism, pantheism or austere forms of philosophical deism that postulate a distant, non-interfering God.)”
By why not tackle religion in general? After all, the title of the book is Faith vs Fact (a generic “faith,” not a particular one), and the subtitle refers to “religion” in general, not just the highly qualified version that turns out to be the actual target of Coyne’s critique. Ignoring the smell of a bait and switch, however, even “a personal God who is involved in history” is far too ambiguous a statement. Is there any credible evidence that God performed miracles during recorded human history? Not really, but we have known that since David Hume, no need to deploy the might of modern science to establish that. The fact is, however, that contemporary theologians don’t spend a lot of time talking about miracles, and often speak of God as working through the laws of nature that He established to begin with. How on earth would a scientist test that hypothesis?
Here is a second highly indicative quote from Blackford: “Coyne makes clear that he is not talking about a strict logical inconsistency. Rather, incompatibility arises from the radically different methods used by science and religion to seek knowledge and assess truth claims.”
Ah, so it turns out that science and religion are, in fact, logically compatible (not sure why the clause “strict” is necessary here, something either is or is not logically consistent with something else).
Blackford continues: “religions have seemingly endless resources to avoid outright falsification.” On the one hand, this is, I think, a category mistake: since the primary goal of religions is not to seek truths about the natural world, the very idea that their statements ought to be falsifiable is weird. Imagine if I said that I don’t think the death penalty is ethically defensible (which is not the same as asking whether “it works” on pragmatic grounds), and you asked me for a falsifiable experiment that could prove that. I wouldn’t know what to tell you, other than that you are hopelessly confused about what I just said.
On the other hand, however (and here comes the huge caveat promised above), some “religious” claims are eminently falsifiable, and have, in fact, been falsified. Think the earth is a few thousand years old? Well, much evidence from geology, biology, chemistry, physics, and astronomy clearly and unequivocally falsifies your “theory.” If your religion insists in telling you the contrary, then your religion is wrong and its claims about the natural world have, in fact, been falsified.
Finally, let me add a few words on the nature of science, which is a major point of running dispute between myself and the New Atheists. Again from Blackford’s review: “[Coyne] favors a concept of ‘science broadly construed.’ He elaborates this as: ‘the same combination of doubt, reason, and empirical testing used by professional scientists.’” But this has it exactly backwards, historically speaking: it is modern professional scientists that use that same combination of doubt, reason and empirical testing that Homo sapiens has been using since the Pleistocene, and that has made us the dominant species on planet Earth (for good and, mostly, for bad, as far as the rest of the biosphere is concerned). To refer to the application of basic reasoning and empirical trial and error as “science” is anachronistic, and clearly done in the service of what I cannot but think is a scientistic agenda.
Indeed, Blackford himself, at some level, realizes the absurdity of Coyne’s “broad construction” of science, but confines his comment to a parenthetical statement: “From another viewpoint, of course, the modern-day sciences, and to some extent the humanities, can be seen as branches from the tree of Greek philosophy.” Exactly.
Postscript: both Coyne and Blackford have responded to my critique. Predictably, both have deployed a significant amount of sarcasm, of which I’m happy to be the continued target. I can take it as much as I can dish it out.
Nonetheless, I would like to point out that, as much as there is a lot that reasonable people can reasonably disagree about here, I was honestly struck and somewhat taken aback by the viciousness of Russell’s personal attack on me, which I will leave readers to peruse and judge for themselves.
Luckily, I simply don’t care. I have learned long ago that one doesn’t write this sort of things (mine or theirs) in order to convince one’s alleged interlocutor. We all write for a broader public, not to change each other’s mind. Which, ironically, reminds me of my time in the ’90s debating creationists: I knew I had no chance in hell to get through Duane Gish or Ken Hovind, but I thought it was worth trying to reach those sitting on the fence. Cogitate on that, for a minute…

Reblogged this on The Logical Place.
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Massimo,
It is a conundrum; To address that broader audience, yet needing the framing device of a particular point of contention. Often one chosen for its visibility, thus attracting that broader audience, as opposed to trying to peel away the underlaying issues. This unfortunately diverts the conversation to the personal and political interests of those making the original arguments and therefore further into the underbrush, than actually getting to the fundamental issues causing the intellectual chaos.
If it was all easy, there would be no challenge. Good luck with untying the knot.
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Reblogged this on Primate's Progress and commented:
Historically, an accommodationist was a believer who, like William Buckland (Dean of Westminster), or the Free Church of Scotland theologian Henry Drummond, sought to accommodate their interpretation of their faith to scientific discoveries. More recently, some have taken to using the term to refer to those who neglect to sufficiently disparage religion while expounding science, an neglect that for some reason is, in certain quarters, considered sinful
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Hi Massimo,
The good news is that I’m going to give you more opportunity to practice Stoic forbearance. 🙂 The less good news is that (no surprises) I agree with Coyne and Blackford.
You repeatedly make an issue of what is the primary business of religion. But the Coyne/Blackford argument isn’t affected by whether factual statements about the world are the primary, secondary or tertiary business. It is still the case that for the vast majority of influential religions, factual statements about the word *are* part of their business, and — importantly — the “seeking meaning and ethics” part of religion depends on the cosmogonies. If you strip out all the factual statements, then their accounts of meaning and ethics collapse. Thus your attempted rebuttal doesn’t work.
Ditto. The vast majority of influential religions do claim “truths about the natural world” that are key parts of their world view, without which the “meaning” and “ethical” teachings fall apart.
It may be that only the theologians who “got out of the business” of making factual statements about how things are — in your view — “serious”, but that leaves a lot of “non-serious” theologies that are very influential and (in many people’s view) harmful in the world.
Because the religions including a personal god are hugely influential? Because such a religion has its tentacles all over one of the two main political parties in the world’s richest and most powerful nation? Because such a religion dominates the lives of a billion people in the Islamic world? Because such religions are often anti-science (and Coyne’s first book was, of course, a rebuttal of creationism). Because such religions oppose ethical conduct on birth control, abortion, right to assisted death, treatment of gays, treatment of women, etc? Because the religious *without* any actual gods are a lot less harmful? Because such religions tend to be vacuous and not worth dealing with? Lots of reasons, really.
But no-one ever claimed they were *logically* incompatible! The incompatibility is an evidential one! Coyne explicitly stated that he was not claiming *logical” incompatibility, and you want to claim victory by showing that they aren’t logically incompatible?
The claim of a herd of unicorns currently grazing the White House lawn would be *logically* compatible with science. So what? The issue is evidential.
Yes!! That is *exactly* what Coyne et al are claiming! There is nothing *backwards* about the claim! Coyne uses the word “science” just because it’s the closest one for “doubt, reason and empirical testing” in the language today. That’s all! So you might prefer to use “scientia” or “natural philosophy” instead. Fine, ok, no problem, it’s only a label. I’m baffled that you think your reply is any sort of rebuttal of the argument.
That argument is about whether there are “other ways of knowing” than the “doubt, reason and empirical testing” of which science today is a prime example. It is not a petty point about which word is older.
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Hi Massimo,
Just another point:
.
What might have provoked Russell’s tone in response is your general style of replying to Jerry and Russell as though they were a bit stupid, and simply don’t know what religion is about.
For example, if Coyne presents the idea that the methods used by modern science are merely a refinement of the basic methods used by Pleistocene hunter-gatherers to figure things out, and suggests that epistemologically they are much the same thing, then it is treating him as stupid to reply that this is “absurd” because the Pleistocene hunter-gatherers preceded modern science — as if Jerry wouldn’t know that.
Why not stop and think and ponder whether you can make a more charitable interpretation of his intent?
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Only two replies so far, Coel?
And, I’ve had a bit of Coyne’s sarcasm in comments on his blog. Coel, there IS no more charitable interpretation of his intent.
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Massimo, (Coel,)
Could a society function/exist, without the general social, moral, ethical, philosophical principles which a religious type belief system inculcates in the larger, broader population?
Yes, science is very effective at picking at details, but there are billions of people in this world. Does science provide the social mechanisms for them to function to the degree that they do?
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I should point out that in the fifteenth century, Nicolas of Cusa wrote that the Earth moved, that it was not the centre of the Universe and that its movement was influenced by the Sun.
He also said that the Universe was infinite and that beings on any star would see themselves as the centre with all other bodies seeming to move relative to them.
He was a Cardinal in the Church and a favourite of the Pope’s.
This a century before Copernicus and two centuries before Galileo.
On which cosmonogy, then, did the message of the Church depend?
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What is the scientific formula for “Do unto others, as you would have them do unto you.”?
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Hi Robin,
That God exists, that God intentionally created the world, and then humans; that man rebelled against God’s will; that God sent his son to redeem man; that he was killed, yet conquered death and was resurrected. Et cetera.
Of course one could interpret all of that, including any mention of “God”, as a metaphor, but that would make the rest of the church’s message un-rooted and arbitrary.
De facto, most people’s religions do require factual statements about how the world is. Half of Americans take a very literal reading of their holy books, interpreting them as making many factual statements. Nearly two thirds of Americans, if they encountered an inconsistency between their religion and the findings of science, say they would reject the science.
Yes, there are also religious people who take a different view, and view religion *solely* as a set of Aesop’s fables about morals, but that is a minority view. Coyne et al are entitled to respond to religion as it actually is.
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Just read Blackford. What a piece of workl. Massimo, you are a saint. He’s fortunate it isn’t me he’s talking about.
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What a sad bunch. One tries to imagine what the point is of shouting “Science and religion are incompatible!” other than as a kind of signalling behavior. If you already agree, the message is unnecessary, and if you are one of those people who thinks they are, it’s not as if you’re going to say, “Well, Russel Blackford says they aren’t, so I’ll ditch my religion. One imagines some poor Catholic chemist tearfully struggling with Coyne or Blackford — “Should I leave the Church or forswear my career?” — that is, until one realizes that the scenario is preposterous and that the C’s and B’s of the world are doing little more than peeing on the floor.
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Hi Dan,
One point of New Atheist books (such as Coyne’s Faith vs Fact, which Blackford was reviewing) is that a lot of people have not made up their minds about such things. This is particularly so for teenagers and young adults, perhaps brought up in religious environments, who may now be thinking about such things for themselves.
It would be fair to say that you, as an intellectually active academic well into adulthood, would not be the target audience for such a book, but plenty of others will find value in it.
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Coel: The behavior I am seeing is much more suggestive of floor-peeing than a genuine desire to educate, but I guess perceptions differ.
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Coel,
I’m answering you not because I have the slightest indication that I can change your mind about it, but because third parties may be interested. (Take it as a compliment: I’m putting you in the same category as Blackford and Coyne!)
“It is still the case that for the vast majority of influential religions, factual statements about the word *are* part of their business, and — importantly — the “seeking meaning and ethics” part of religion depends on the cosmogonies”
How? A fundamentalist Christian believes the same general ethical precepts as a moderate Christian, yet the first one also believes that the earth is a few thousand years old, while the latter is happy to let science tell us how the heaven goes.
“that leaves a lot of “non-serious” theologies that are very influential and (in many people’s view) harmful in the world”
Did I ever give you the impression that I’m not aware of the harm that ideologies (religious or not) do to the world? But now we are talking about specific ideologies and specific harms, not “religion” in general, aren’t we?
“Because the religions including a personal god are hugely influential?”
Buddhism is highly influential as well. And at any rate, then Coyne should have entitled his book “The conflict between science and Abrahamism.” Except that even that wouldn’t have worked. It should have been “The conflict between science and literalist nutcases.” But that wouldn’t have sold much…
“But no-one ever claimed they were *logically* incompatible! The incompatibility is an evidential one!”
It was Russell who brought up the logical incompatibility issue. And at any rate, as I explained in my essay (did you read it?) they are not incompatible factually either, depending on which version of which religion one picks.
“Coyne uses the word “science” just because it’s the closest one for “doubt, reason and empirical testing” in the language today.”
It isn’t. He is trying to make it so because he is pursuing a scientistic agenda, like Blackford (who, by the way is contributing a chapter to my new book on scientism, Chicago Press), Harris and their ilk.
“What might have provoked Russell’s tone in response is your general style of replying to Jerry and Russell as though they were a bit stupid, and simply don’t know what religion is about”
Really? I never said they are stupid, and I know perfectly well they are not. But they are pushing a particular ideological agenda, and I call them on it.
“it is treating him as stupid to reply that this is “absurd” because the Pleistocene hunter-gatherers preceded modern science — as if Jerry wouldn’t know that.”
He knows, but conveniently ignores. And that particular comment came at the end because Russell himself realizes just how bizarre Coyne’s statement actually is. Russell’s last comment in his review is highly revelatory, precisely because the man is not stupid.
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Massimo says:
Whether it’s meant as a compliment might be another thing? 🙂
It is, IMO, totally accurate.
And, Coel, thanks for admitting:
That Gnus are, as I’ve long said, evangelists for a fundamentalist version of atheism. Sociologically, they quite parallel religious fundamentalists. Massimo’s whole exchange, and most your comments, not just in this thread, but in general, re Gnu Atheism, only underscore that.
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Isn’t this all one big semantic fiasco hinging on the what one means by compatible, religion, science, faith, fact, etc. I made a comment once that evolution helps us better understand life and got a narcissistic creationist reply wondering how evolution helped him understand his life. Life it does mean different things.
I am pretty much in agreement with Massimo on this, but it is not entirely one-sided; there is plenty of obfuscation all around. One must also look at evangelism in the likes of the AAAS’s DoSER program and the NAS’s pamphlet “Science, Evolution, and Creationism” where religion is promoted as “a way of knowing” equal to science only different. They painstakingly describe how science knows, but fail to mention how religion knows. Why is that? Could it mean that no one has a clue? I have read a fair amount of theology and still have no idea how one studies gods. I almost get the feeling that one of theology’s tasks is to wall off god-belief from a ever-changing reality, but then we are back to compatibility again.
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For someone who thinks current cosmology wandered off the deep end over the last century, the presumption that science doesn’t have its own sets of unquestioned beliefs is a bit naive. As in we have space expanding, but a stable speed of light in a vacuum to compare it to and there is no effort to distinguish between space and the vacuum!
So I think the more interesting subject here is how our world views grow and evolve. There was a time when the premise of a singular deity, as opposed to multitudes of spirits, was cutting edge. Now we presume a singular universe and cutting edge is multiple such universes. How far have we really come, or are we going in circles?
If we are going to insist the distinct entity, as opposed to processes, or infinite networks, etc. is primary and accepting that that sentience is a irrefutable fact, what proof is there that it can only be a function of particular forms of singular organisms, other than our own normalcy bias and this primacy of entities? Colonies of entities seem to show a greater cognitive ability than singular members of that colony, so wouldn’t the group be a higher form of sentience? If so, then wouldn’t this higher sense qualify as a form of group, or tribal deity?
Knowledge is often of process of moving onto new thoughts and forms of thinking, leaving old concepts behind, yet this lost knowledge often has its own wisdom. It does seem there is a certain cultural bias of the modern era that rests more on in group hubris, than a truly broad view.
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Hi Massimo,
I’m honoured!
That’s merely an example of a factual belief on which the meaning/ethical aspects do not depend. It’s easy to give examples of factual beliefs on which the meaning/ethical aspects do depend.
Examples are: that God exists, that God cares about us; that Jesus lived; that Jesus died and was resurrected; that the OT condemnation of “lying with a man” is God’s word and opinion, et cetera. If you make ditch *every* factual statement in a religion, or make them all metaphorical, then the meaning/ethical aspects evaporate into nothing.
But “religion in general” is merely the aggregate of specific ideologies. If the majority of influential religions are harmful, then “religion in general” is harmful.
But most of the non-literalist versions of the Abrahamic religions also make factual statements about the world.
Russell only brought the notion of *logical* compatibility as a “very weak thesis” that amounts to little, and says that, anyhow, in asserting incompatibilty Coyne “makes clear” that he is not talking about a strict logical inconsistency. So why would one declare victory over them by claiming mere logical compatibility?
Yep, indeed had done so days ago via your twitter feed, and then through Jerry Coyne’s linking to it.
You mean, if you pick the small minority of “sophisticated” theologies that are not factually incompatible then they are not factually incompatible? But the vast majority of influential religions *are* factually incompatible! And those that are not have tended to descend into apophatic vacuity. Much like the Chesire Cat, all that’s left is the grin!
I’m utterly baffled as to why you think that Coyne’s statement is in any way bizarre.
Russell’s comment recognises that — in Coyne’s unity-of-knowledge thesis, with the same epistemology underpinning science, history, humanities, philosophy, Pleistocene hunter-gatherers, etc — it does not matter what you call the ensemble, it does not matter whether you call everything a part of “broadly construed science” or instead call everything a part of “philosophy” or whatever you like.
That’s why Russell says that “he doesn’t terribly mind” Coyne’s usage, and that if “the English language eventually evolves in the direction of employing his construal” then he’s ok with it, though “for now, I prefer to avoid confusion by saying that the sciences and humanities are continuous with each other, forming a unity of knowledge”. He then notes that all of that is merely `a `terminological point”, which it is.
All of that, and your reply, is merely about labelling. The actual thesis is about epistemology and the claim that “the sciences and humanities are continuous with each other, forming a unity of knowledge” and that there are not “other ways of knowing”.
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Hi Socratic,
The Gnus are indeed vocal advocates seeking to persuade (well spotted! And in other news, the Pope is Catholic and bears pooh in the woods).
But, as for a “fundamentalist version” of atheism, what do you mean by that? Care to list what you think those fundamentals are before I plead yeah or nay?
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Sociologically fundamentalist per this article in that they believe certain tenets, such as methodological (NOT just metaphysical) naturalism are “core” tenets, even the equivalent of dogmas, and ergo:
“Haec est fides athei, quam nisi quisque fideliter firmiterque crediderit, salvus esse non poterit.”
And, I may well be the only person who knows what the original is and what I’m riffing on.
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I have to confess to chuckling as I read these pieces. It would seem that even the intellectually astute among us seem to engage in the adolescent prank of wedgies. Dan K’s “floor-peeing” metaphor also seems particularly apt.
Honestly, I don’t know what perversity in my nature entices me to continue to read these things. All make their points, the same points that the general audience has read to the point of tedium. But, despite making some good points, Blackford’s conclusion is ironically preachy and bizarrely suggests that Massimo’s views represent an unforgivable intellectual faux-paus: ” . . . the rest of us will struggle uphill when we try to present philosophy as a counterweight to propaganda and tribalism.” Whoa, big boy! Life goes on. It may be that Massimo will genuinely reach out to you in an attempt to assuage your bruised sensitivity, but you will have to take such gesture as a matter of faith. Otherwise, may I suggest a duel at dawn might restore your honor?
As a postscript, let me say that Blackford does himself no favor by spending paragraphs defending his use of the modifier “celebrity” and his defense of it is disingenuously overwrought. Of course most readers will agree with Massimo that it suggests a smear tactic. Quite simply Blackford could have chosen any number of modifiers–“famous” or “acclaimed” come to mind. Instead, he used “celebrity,” a word that, depending on context, has come to connote “faddishness” or “tritely popular,” or “of exaggerated repute.”
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Hi Socratic,
Quite the opposite. Methodological naturalism (the idea that science must a priori reject supernatural possibilities) is characteristic of accommodationism. Gnus usually reject that idea. Instead they regard claims about the supernatural as being scientific claims about how the world is. They then reject them as a product of scientific enquiry, on the grounds that there is insufficient evidence for them. E.g. Dawkins’s stance in TGD that God is a scientific hypothesis.
I wrote an article rejecting methodological naturalism: “Science can deal with the supernatural”, which, if you’re interested, links to articles by Jerry Coyne and Russell Blackford taking the same line.
So, if you think that methodological naturalism amounts of “fundamentalist atheism” then you’d better accuse Massimo of that, since my article also quotes him defending methodological naturalism. 🙂
You might have meant the above the other way round, associating metaphysical naturalism (not just methodological naturalism) with Gnus, but there again that is not so. As stated, Gnus see a rejection of the supernatural as a consequence of scientific enquiry not as a metaphysical or dogmatic commitment.
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Socratic,
“And, I may well be the only person who knows what the original is and what I’m riffing on.” Well, that’s a bit of hubris! Some of us were raised catholic, you know. (And a number of readers here still adhere to that faith.)
I’m going to bring what may be a different perspective to the table. I think the whole question of whether science per se is incompatible with religion per se is simply boring. It is littered with category mistakes, conflicting interpretations, and unacknowledged motivations.
Specific issues in specific domains, having specific conflicts of interest, can be intellectually stimulating and ethically or politically necessary to engage (eg., the obvious instances of what to teach in schools or whether we accept climate change claims). But the most generalized forms of these issues are receding into esoterica.
Do I really care if anybody believes in god? What does it get me to worry about it? It’s one thing for me to get into an argument with individual theists, whatever the social prompt might lead me to this. It’s another to campaign against belief just as such. Where’s the pay-off?
Finally, as I’ve remarked elsewhere, while the incoherence of theism seems to me plain, putting the question of faith in this way, or by making empirical claims, simply misses the emotional and psychological motivations that either lead people into such faith, or hold them to it once they’re committed. And these motivations are simply untouchable by argument or evidence.
I understand the desire to appeal to fence-sitters. But getting all ‘scorched earth’ on the matter may turn off as many fence-sitters as it invites in; and ultimately seems to be a waste of time and effort, better spent pursuing one’s positive interests.
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EJ … more a “whiff of obscurity” than a “whiff of hubris,” if you will. At least, it was intended that way. (Don’t give away the answer, though!)
That said, the rest of your thought is interesting indeed. I probably agree in the broad sense, but on issues like category mistakes, would love to hear more detailed thought.
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Note 2 to EJ: Do Catholics, in Mass, (still) recite that particular document on one particular Sunday/weekend of the year?
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Socratic,
The question of category mistakes is dealt with partly in Massimo’s article; and Dan Kaufman has remarked on them in relation to this topic a number of times elsewhere.
But consider seemingly opposed claims ‘god is the origin of all being,’ and the supposed counter-claim ‘all things originated through processes initiated by the big bang.’ The two understandings of the nature of ‘origination’ deployed in these two claims are in fact quite different. Of course for fundamentalists, ‘origination’ encompasses ‘material processes’ (and New Atheists would simply reverse that relationship). But ‘source’ or ‘ground,’ and ‘point of initiation,’ are clearly not identical metaphysically. The claims are thus at cross-purposes, and are not strictly in opposition.
As to what Catholics practice today… I’m afraid I burned that bridge many years ago, so I couldn’t rightly say.
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SG
So your conclusion is that atheists are making threats of eternal punishment for belief as suggested for non-belief in the creed?
I am with EJ here, I don’t get the “all or none” focus coming from either side. Why for instance would atheists and atheist organizations want to emulate religions – neither atheism nor theism automatically makes one a good or bad or a smart or dumb or even a rational or irrational person. We’ve let this one distinction take the place of making valid arguments.
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Michael … not all atheists … but Gnus seem to have the secular version of that. Look at the sneers toward “accommodationism.” Oh, and this is mild; Massimo knows how the likes of P.Z. Myers are on this.
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The other puzzle about the incompatibilists is that they tend to bang on and on about NOMA. OK, so a particular agnostic biologist had a bad idea. Let’s get over it and remember him for the good stuff he did.
But, as even Blackford confirms, religions don’t generally make this claim. And if a lot of non religious scientists continue to like the NOMA idea, as Blackford says, then surely that is a criticism of non-religious scientists and not of religion.
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