“Ought implies can” is one of those elementary notions that every philosophy student learns in introductory courses. Specifically, she will come across two formulations of the principle, both due to Kant. In his Critique of Pure Reason, he says: “The action to which the ‘ought’ applies must indeed be possible under natural conditions.” And in Religion Within the Boundaries of Mere Reason he explains: “For if the moral law commands that we ought to be better human beings now, it inescapably follows that we must be capable of being better human beings.” (Of course one could deny the antecedent “if” condition, but the idea is that if one accepts it then what follows is entailed.)
This seems a pretty straightforward logical principle, i.e., entirely independent of empirical verification. Or is it? A recent paper by Vladimir Chituc, Paul Henne, Walter Sinnott-Armstrong and Felipe De Brigard argues otherwise. Published in the journal Cognition with the title “Blame, not ability, impacts moral ‘ought’ judgments for impossible actions: Toward an empirical refutation of ‘ought’ implies ‘can'” is one of the latest salvos in the controversial field of experimental philosophy.
Now to be clear, Kan’t dictum simply says that in order for someone to be morally obliged to do X it has to be (“naturally”) possible for that person to actually do X. If it’s impossible, then it makes no sense to make the moral demand to begin with. The standard position in philosophy is that this is necessarily, i.e., logically true, and thus that empirical evidence is besides the point.
One of the co-authors of the paper, Sinnot-Armstrong, had previously argued that “‘ought’ does not necessarily, analytically, or conceptually imply ‘can.’ Rather, it only suggests ‘can’ in contexts where ‘ought’ judgments are used to advise rather than to blame agents—if we were giving advice to a friend, then our advice would be useless if our friend could not do what we advise. In other contexts, such as when we are laying blame (‘Where are you? You ought to be here by now!’), there is no implication from ‘ought’ to ‘can.'”
Well, maybe individual agents not particularly well versed in logic do not mean to imply anything, but perhaps they should?
At any rate, Chituc et al. set out to do an empirical test of Kant’s dictum, contrasting two hypotheses:
H1. Participants will deny that an agent ought to do something that the agent can’t do, regardless of whether the agent is to blame for the inability.
vs:
H2. Participants will judge that an agent ought to do something that the agent can’t do when the agent is to blame for the inability.
The authors carried out three experiments to go after the problem. In the first one, they used 79 subjects recruited via Amazon Mechanical Turk and asked them to read these two vignettes:
“Adams promises to meet his friend Brown for lunch at noon today. It takes Adams thirty minutes to drive from his house to the place where they plan to eat lunch together.
Low blame vignette: Adams leaves his house at eleven thirty. However, fifteen minutes after leaving, Adams car breaks down unexpectedly. Because his car is not working at that time, Adams cannot meet his friend Brown at noon, as he promised.
High blame vignette: Adams decides that he does not want to have lunch with Brown after all, so he stays at his house until eleven forty-five. Because of where he is at that time, Adams cannot meet his friend Brown at noon, as he promised.”
The subjects were then asked: “Do you agree or disagree with the following statement? At eleven forty-five, it is still true that Adams ought to meet Brown at noon.”
The results showed that people are more likely to say that Adams ought to keep the promise in the high blame situation, where he manifestly, physically, cannot (because of his earlier, culpable, decision to delay departure). The authors take these results to support H2, which is true, but — seems to me — irrelevant to Kant’s point. Kant would have simply responded that Adams was to blame for not meeting his friend because he had purposely delayed departure until a time at which it was physically impossible for him to do so. The fact that at time t+1 an agent is naturally incapable of doing X does not make him not blameable for it, if at time t he willfully put himself in such position.
Moving on to experiment 2: in this case, 195 subjects read a modified version of the low blame situation above, designed so that the wording excluded alternate pathways for Adams to keep his promise, which might have confounded the results of the first experiment. Here is the wording of the new vignette:
“Brown is a CEO of a large company in the economic boom in the middle of the 20th Century. At 2 o’clock, Brown has a meeting in the city to make a significant financial decision that will decide the future of his company. Since so much money is at stake, he asks his trusted personal advisor, Adams, to meet him on the 12 o’clock train. On the train, he plans to discuss his decision on the ride into the city, where Brown will go straight to his 2 o’clock meeting. Adams promises to meet Brown on the train at noon. It takes Adams thirty minutes to drive to the train station, park, purchase a ticket, and board the train. However, fifteen minutes after leaving at eleven-thirty, Adams car breaks down unexpectedly. Because his car is not working at the time, Adams cannot meet Brown at noon, as promised. Since cell phones have not been invented yet, Adams has no way to contact him.”
People were asked “to rate how much they agreed with statements saying that, (i) at 11:45 AM, Adams ought to keep his promise, (ii) Adams can keep his promise, and (iii) Adams is to blame for not keeping his promise.”
Results: there was a modest but statistically significant correlation (r=0.23) between ought and blame judgments, but no significant correlation (r=0.08) between ought and can judgments. Finally, can and blame were also significantly correlated (r=0.24).
The idea was that the expectation based on Kant’s dictum was of a correlation between can and ought, which however turned out to be the only pair of variables not to be correlated. Again, however, to me this does not invalidate Kant, but it rather speaks to how poorly people understand logic, which is sufficiently worrisome.
And we finally get to the third experiment, in which 319 people were exposed to vignettes representing more complex situations and where asked more sophisticated questions, in order again to untangle some of the variables that might have be confounded in the first two cases. Here is one of the vignettes in question:
“Moral Obligation, Inability, High Fault (Low Fault):
Brown is excited about a new movie that is playing at the cinema across town. He hasn’t had a chance to see it, but the latest showing is at 6 o’clock that evening. Brown’s friend, Adams, asks Brown to see the movie with him, and Brown promises to meet Adams there. It takes Brown fifteen minutes to drive to the cinema, park, purchase a ticket, and enter the movie. It would take 30 min if Brown decided to ride his bike. The cinema has a strict policy of not admitting anyone after the movie starts, and the movie always starts right on time.
[As Brown gets ready to leave at 5:45, he decides he really doesn’t want to see the movie after all. He passes the time for five minutes, so that he will be unable to make it to the cinema on time. Because Brown decides to wait, Brown can’t make it to the movie by 6. (High Blameworthiness)]
[At 5:30, Brown thinks about riding his bike, but decides it is too cold. Instead, he leaves at 5:45, but his car breaks down five minutes later. He can’t fix it himself in time to make it to the cinema, and it is too late to make it by bike. Because his car is not working at the time, Brown can’t meet his friend Adams at the movie by 6. (Low Blameworthiness)]”
With respect to the above, participants were asked to judge the following statements:
“Can: At 5:30 [Can’t: 5:50], Brown can make it to the theater by 6.
Blame: Brown is to blame for not making it to the theater by 6.
Ought: Brown ought to make it to the theater by 6”
The data set here was complex enough that the authors had to carry out a multivariate analysis of variance. You can check the details in the original paper, but they again found a statistically significant correlation between ought and blame (r=0.41) and no significant correlation between ought and can (r=0.18). This time, however, the correlation between blame and can was also not significant (r=-0.07), unlike in the second experiment.
The authors take the findings to replicate those of the first two experiments, and moreover to “demonstrate that this relationship between ought and blame does not hold for ‘ought’ judgments based on non-moral desires or judgments about instances when the agent can do what he ought to do.”
Okay, what’s the overall conclusion, then?
“We show that judgments of ought, contrary to broad philosophical assumption, do not imply judgments of can.”
I would argue that the results show no such thing at all. What they do show is that people, under certain circumstances, arrive at non-logical judgments. But that’s hardly news! Imagine a similar study carried out on the gambler’s fallacy. What would be a statistician’s response when shown empirical data that a good number of people behave exactly as his understanding of probability theory says they shouldn’t behave? I am going to go on a limb and guess that the statistician in question would shrug his shoulders and mutter something to the effect that “people are stupid, that’s why the gambling industry thrives.” Why, exactly, shouldn’t a philosopher whose dictum is based on elementary logic (Kant, in this case) not do exactly the same? (Notice that this isn’t a point about ethics, it’s about logic, so one doesn’t have to buy into Kant’s ethical pronouncements to agree.)
The authors continue: “Instead, judgments of ought are affected by judgments of blame.” Exactly, and illogically so, one ought (?) to add.
Now, if what the authors had set out to do was descriptive work in the psychology of moral judgment, this would actually be interesting. But they very explicitly didn’t: “Even more than exploring the relationship between concepts in moral psychology, these findings have important normative significance, as they pose a serious challenge for the many philosophers who hold that ‘ought’ implies ‘can.'” But they do not pose any such challenge! No more than a similar study on the gambler’s fallacy empirically demonstrating that people commit it often would have any significance whatsoever for “prescriptive” probability theory.
Again: “Because this principle [that ought implies can] is usually taken as an analytic or a conceptual entailment, it is supposed to follow necessarily from the concepts expressed by the words ‘ought’ and ‘can.’ Our results show that it does not.” No, your results show no such thing. At all. What next? A Study showing that people think some bachelors are married, and that therefore the definition of bachelor is “wrong”?
Chituc and collaborators go so far as to blame philosophers for this glaring discrepancy between logic and fact: “Why, then, are so many philosophers attracted to the principle that ‘ought’ implies ‘can’? One explanation is that rather than the participants in our experiment being distorted by a motivation to ascribe blame, philosophers may be distorting their judgments by a motivation to withhold blame.”
Holy crap! Never mind that Kant laid plenty of blame on people for all sorts of things (so long as they could do otherwise), and that philosophers generally agree that ethics is prescriptive, which implies that an agent is to blame if he does not do something that he ought and could do. Philosophers don’t withhold blame, but they do try to keep it within the confines of what an agent can actually do, not blaming people for failing to do impossible things.
The only good point, philosophically speaking, that Chituc et al. make comes at the very end of the paper: “much of the appeal of the principle that ‘ought’ implies ‘can’ is supposed to be that it reflects commonsense moral judgments. If philosophers do not stick to common moral concepts, then they risk becoming esoteric and irrelevant.”
Well, to begin with, I’d like to see empirical evidence that philosophers really do think that Kant’s dictum reflects commonsense. This is experimental philosophy, after all, and it’s not like Kant himself was known to be a particularly commonsensical kind of thinker.
Second, right, philosophers ought to be relevant to the public. So should statisticians. But the way to do that is not to abandon logic or probability theory, it is by educating the public: if you insist in engaging in the gambler’s fallacy you are behaving irrationally; and if you insist in saying that someone ought to do something which he could not possibly do, then you are reasoning illogically. Data like that provided by Chituc and collaborators show us important things about just how badly people misjudge situations, and so make for a very good argument for more education in moral theory. And elementary logic.

Synred
“Myself I don’t think there is any certainty about the content of moral judgments, but that we ‘hardwired’ to make ‘em and ethics can reasonably address what that content ‘ought’ to be.”
Ethics can address what the content of judgements that are “hardwired” ought to be? This seems like an oxymoron to me. Plus, just because we are hardwired to do something obviously doesn’t make it “moral” by any ethical framework I am aware of.
“people are much more likely to perceive your statements on ethics and morals in the way EJ suggests, rather than in the way suggested by your apologia.”
Well EJ thinks condemning the mentally ill is the best possible moral stance so there’s not much I can do about how people with such a mindset view my position on morality. All I can do is educate. People are free to take a pass if they chose. I won’t judge. 😉
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Dan: I agree, accept that it’s only a ‘blog’ that few are paying attention too, so people can ‘spew’ with little harm done.
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The _content_ of the ethics is not ‘hard wired’, the existence of ethics is ‘hard wired’ and to necessary for a social species. The contents can and does vary widely.
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Well EJ thinks condemning the mentally ill is the best possible moral stance so there’s not much I can do about how people with such a mindset view my position on morality. All I can do is educate. People are free to take a pass if they chose. I won’t judge. 😉
Well condemnation may have some positive effects, who knows? Keeping nuts from getting
Sig Sauer MCX would be more effective.
Australia hasn’t had such a big mass shooting since they got rid of assault rifles.
http://www.sigsauer.com/Catalog/rifles.aspx
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The pistol configurations come with a side-folding version of SIG’s SBX Pistol-Stabilizing Brace. The SIG MCX rifle version sports a 16-inch cold hammer-forged barrel and is available for $1,866, while the SBR variant features a 9-inch barrel and is available for $2,058.Jan
If LHO had one of these he wouldn’t have any problem with those 6 second, or sneaking it into the book depository. And we let fruit cakes buy ‘em.
From: Arthur Snyder [mailto:synred@sonic.net] Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2016 10:57 AM To: ‘Plato’s Footnote’ Subject: RE: [New comment] Ought implies can. Or does it?
Well EJ thinks condemning the mentally ill is the best possible moral stance so there’s not much I can do about how people with such a mindset view my position on morality. All I can do is educate. People are free to take a pass if they chose. I won’t judge. 😉
Well condemnation may have some positive effects, who knows? Keeping nuts from getting
Sig Sauer MCX would be more effective.
Australia hasn’t had such a big mass shooting since they got rid of assault rifles.
http://www.sigsauer.com/Catalog/rifles.aspx
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Garthdaisy ” because we are hardwired to do something obviously doesn’t make it “moral” by any ethical framework”
I suggest it is this is back to front. Because some basic actions are “moral” (i.e behaviorally advantageous) we have evolved born hardwired to do them. But “hardwiring” by evolution is a blind process and far to slow to have adequately equipped us to cope with large communities. We are forced into our own “intelligent design” of ethics (e.g. religious “codes”) for an *untestable* future. When we lived as small disparate tribes it was vital to procreate: now this is no longer a vital requirement, even quite the reverse, but it remains in many a strong emotional part of our hardwiring albeit culturally denied and of course remains part of many religious “codes” which are by definition supernatural and inviolable and we get Orlando.
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synred wrote:
“Well EJ thinks condemning the mentally ill is the best possible moral stance …”
———————–
You know very well he did no such thing. Indeed, EJ is the last person on the planet to do any such thing.
And the immediate leap to assume that everyone who commits a horrific crime is “mentally ill” is among the laziest and most morally bankrupt moves one hears today.
The crime was premeditated; made in explicit allegiance to Islamist mass murderers; and was motivated by hate for gay people. One doesn’t have to be mentally ill to do this. Its being done in countries across the globe. Being gay in Gaza and the West Bank is a death sentence. Ditto in Iran and Pakistan. Are they all “mentally ill”?
I don’t blame EJ for his disgust.
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Synred: My apologies. Apparently that disgusting reference to EJ was from garthdaisy. I will admit, I am much less surprised now than I was before.
Mea culpa.
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What I’m trying to say, but can’t seem to get across is that we (maybe) ‘hardwired’ to have morals, not the specific content of those morals.
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Dan: “Synred: My apologies”
That’s Ok. I was quoting Garth. Maybe I forgot the quotation mark (though I tend to over use ’em).
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Although he was advising all listeners and readers to take Lipitor, Dr. Robert Jarvik, a pioneer of the artificial heart device, had never practiced medicine. The TV commercials portrayed Jarvik engaging in significant physical activity: rowing a racing shell across a mountain lake. But the rowing was actually performed by a stuntman who resembled Jarvik. Beyond that we learned that Jarvik only started taking Lipitor after he signed a contract with the drug manufacturer for at least $ 1.35 million over two years. 2
Topol, Eric. The Creative Destruction of Medicine: How the Digital Revolution Will Create Better Health Care (p. 20). Basic Books. Kindle Edition.
Maybe the 1.35 Mil made Jarvik feel good.
‘I’ll wait to have sex in heaven, ‘cause I’m wired up to my Jarvik Seven’
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To: “My goodness EJ, what an impoverished perception you have of some of views/people here!”
EJ,
What I find so troubling about your comment to me here, is that there is so much anger that I simply can’t make sense of. I know that you’ve been a quite respectable and respected person around here since well before I was around. Furthermore you’ve always seemed to cope with opposing perspectives in the past. So what has changed? Hopefully there is an (atypical) explanation, as well as a sensible cure. For what hope does humanity really have, if such anger is both acquired easily, and remains without sensible cures?
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Eric: Seems to me like EJ was quite thorough and explicit in explaining what he found repugnant about many of the views on ethics expressed here. Don’t know how he could have been much clearer, in fact.
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If anyone suggests that what I say about Orlando is inadequate or even repugnant then I can only say guilty as charged.
I simply do not have those right words. What is not plain from a simple recounting of the facts is beyond my expressive powers.
The fact that hearing about this makes me feel bad seems hopelessly unimportant, it will pass with time because that is the way it is for humans. I didn’t lose a child, a friend, a lover. Tonight my children will say something cheeky to me and I will laugh, not thinking of the pain of others. Perhaps I hug my kids a little tighter before bedtime these days, but that will pass as it has in the past. I am crying now as I give this much attention to Orlando, but I am OK and soon I will all but forget, unlike the family, friends and lovers of the victims.
So, what else is there? The practical steps we might take to avoid similar incidents in future? Certainly, but that is not what is being asked for.
I disapprove of his actions. There, does that do it? I might even express social opprobrium if I had the sort of social standing that would allow me to do that, but having been more the target of such opprobrium for a large part of my life I know what a joke that is.
Is my disapproval of those attitudes which led him to kill any different to his disapproval of gays, or is it just the same kind of thing? Is it worth any more? I don’t know.
Then I have this unshakeable impression that to love someone means more than just to have brain states that manipulate me to behaviors that once led to selective advantage.
But it doesn’t seem likely, and that fact has to be faced if it is true. And my love, my support, my willingness to stand with them in any sense that I could, were all I had to offer them.
So Orlando, for me is a set of bad feelings. Feelings that are, truth be told, not as bad as the ones I would feel if I lost my job.
And soon they will pass.
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Robin,
I understand the mix of feelings, especially some sense of hopelessness and deja vu, concerning Orlando. But that is exactly the danger when we refuse the challenge of thinking through the kind of ethical commitments we want to see from others as well as ourselves. The community begins to fragment.
Community is a customary stream of ethical behaviors and communications. In larger, more complex communities, this stream gets channelled into politics, which may ultimately produce laws. Custom, politics, law – these are applied ethics. Failure to engage in ethical thought and communication leaves one silent in the greater community.
It is important not only to say that the Orlando shooting was painful and horrifying to our sensitivities; it is important to say, that the behaviors leading up to the shooting itself are unacceptible – not because we don’t like them, but because they violate somethings held precious by the greater community – the intrinsic worth of the victims, their right to have lived unmolested, the pluralism of our community.
We are having, and we should have, a public discussion concerning which such behaviors are least acceptible in a community that prides itself in its pluralism. Some say it is ownership of automatic weapons; some suggest it is adherence to a certain religious extremism. If the shooter was indeed mentally imbalanced, we should also consider discussions about our shared social responsibilities to those with psychiatric issues, especially when evidently dangerous to themselves or others.
But we can’t have such discussions in a thoughtful manner unless we recognize that our participation in the community carries with it obligations; we can’t have community otherwise.
I realized after posting last night (and I do admit my blood was up, for which I apologize), that part of my response (and thus part of my motivation) was actually addressing the arrival in politics of an odd moment – a reality television star, cut-throat businessman, and obnoxiously amoral narcissist is now in a position of enormous political influence, threatening to achieve a position of enormous political power. How could the American community come to this? I think there are many reasons, each with a long history. But perhaps the important one here has been that too many people have remained silent when they ought to have spoken out in a thoughtful manner, thus leaving the fields of discourse open to bullies on the left or the right. Of course, commercial interests, especially in the media, have been complicit in silencing thoughtful discourse, and in presenting the views of bullies as though they were all equally viable alternatives. About that, I’m unsure what to do. But I do know it is my responsibility – my obligation to the community – to clarify what I see as the reasonable alternatives that do justice to the differing people in my community, and to do what I can to let this be known.
Philosophy need not be overtly political. But it should concern itself overtly with ethics. It can and should clarify what constitutes obligations, and from whence they derive. And to think the political in a thoughtful manner is thus in some sense to think philosophically.
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Indifference, to me, is the epitome of evil
The opposite of love is not hate, it’s indifference
-Ellie Weisel [a]
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Synred.
“What I’m trying to say, but can’t seem to get across is that we (maybe) ‘hardwired’ to have morals, not the specific content of those morals.”
What is a contentless moral? it’s a powerful intuition to discern good from bad. What is good and bad? Good is that which is desired. Bad is that which is not desired. What is desired? That which ensures the thriving of me and mine. What is not desired? That which threatens the thriving of me and mine.
The rest is up to your knowledge (correct or erroneous) of the way the world actually is. If, because of the way you were raised and what you were raised to believe about the way the word actually is, you see LGTBQ as a threat to you and yours, and you further believe that Islam is the solution to the evil of homosexuality, your moral obligation in today’s world, with ISIS forming the caliphate and calling for Jihad against the imperial west and particularly the west’s *disgusting* acceptance of homosexuality, and you live in Orlando near a gay bar with your Taliban supporting father, your *moral obligation* seems clear. And if you happen to be gay yourself? The chance that you have not been driven completely mad by this situation is nil. Even if you’re not gay, good luck being that kid and being sane.
Dan said:
“and was motivated by hate for gay people.”
Now that’s the lazy explanation. He was just a hater, with dreadful ethics! If only he’d read Kant. Seriously though, don’t you just hate the haters? So detestable. I, for one, think hate is wrong and I don’t mind saying so. That’s why I hate hate so much. And even more I hate those who will not declare that hate is wrong in the strongest possible terms. Repugnant.
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EJ,
Through your recent comment to Robin, I think I am starting to understand. You believe that it’s a major problem when societies “refuse the challenge of thinking through the kind of ethical commitments we want to see from others as well as ourselves.” Of course Massimo provides plenty of appropriate posts from which to explore your idea (and I know would love to see more of you!), and you’re certainly in tight at The Electric Agora. Still I can see that there are certain ways in which your ideas might be tested. Nevertheless I’d also hope for our discussion to present an effective demonstration of the issues — not get caught up in petty bickering, definitional inconsistencies, and the like. I’m sure you would too.
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On the issue of indifference, I’m reminded of a line from a song, “You miss more in one second, than you see in your entire life.”
This is what draws me to philosophy. That from the point of view of a single individual, we live in a world that is so contextually vast and there are so many situations in which we can get completely consumed by, that in order to see the bigger picture, in order to even think about how to solve even some of these problems, we do have to develop some degree of emotional detachment from them. In order to see and sense the deeper causes. Yet obviously even this detachment can be a problem and we find ourselves obsessing over details. So there has to be some fluctuation between emotion and intellect.
Emotionally we want to reach out and connect with our world, even if it is in anger. While intellectually we seek to extract and consolidate some structure, pattern and focus out of all that activity swirling about.
Yet we all go about it in extremely different ways. For some people, math provides order and for some, a gun offers up that simple solution. Obviously for someone who feels their life is crumbling and they are falling into the abyss, that veneer of civilization to which the rest of society seeks and subscribes, is usually tattered and suspect.
When you look at the broader flow of life at this point in time, there are ways someone like Donald Trump makes terrifying sense. For most of human existence, sitting around a fire with the group was the essential security. Now that glowing energy is projecting information into the collective consciousness, first as movies and television and now as computer screens.
So that someone like Reagan, a movie star, should emerge from the screen as a figure of leadership is actually logical, but now the world is moving so fast, even the narrative of movies and television is crumbling and we have the sound bites of a television pitchman, riding the wave of all those left in the wake of an ever more efficient and indifferent civilization.
Is technology going to save us, or just drive us toward the edge ever faster?
Personally I think our issues run very deep and the surface on which much of our lives are lived is crumbling like an old building in an earthquake.
A lot of these problems are not solvable in easy ways, but are the ebb and flow of a reality reacting in ways we can no longer control.
We are not likely to change, because the natural reaction to danger and stress is to run to the safety of what we know, not look beyond it. So future generations will pick up the pieces and sort through them for some sort of order and meaning.
Cheers. Life is to be lived.
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Brodix “Life is to be lived”
After that timely homily I feel some misgivings about the following comment, however:
Dan. says “horrific crime”. Why? Because it is …surely… immoral. And I agree with that opinion, no one ought to behave presently in that way. What made homosexuality so strongly, even violently, immoral in the past? It was seen as non-procreative, infertile, by the small groups that were bitterly competing for limited resources. It …naturally… became part of early creeds and persists with a range of intensities in all world religions, in creeds which cannot be modified without implicitly weakening their God’s infallibility.
Coel maintains that morals are entirely subjective, that one sufficiently feels actions to be good/bad, right/wrong . I cannot agree. Dan’s subjective moral opinion makes it a “horrible crime”. The Orlando killer’s subjective opinion was that homosexuality is the “horrible crime”. Both concepts justified by subjective feelings, but they can’t both be right/good.
In rejecting any irrational belief in a superhuman omniscience what purely philosophic/scientific criteria ought nones to use? Laws still need moral/ethical grounds for their delineation, acceptance and enforcement which up to now has been the role of religious creeds. “Thou shalt not kill” is (generally, though not exclusively) good/right without need of religious belief. In thrall to Evolution (that often so brutally ends it), we have to accept that life is not absolutely equal, not absolutely “sacred”. The Trolley problem simplistically ignores this dimension. What if it were a choice say between five heavily-armed religious fanatics and a respected, albeit fat, professor? That then becomes a different moral dilemma, subjective on a personal level, objective on a societal level.
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Hi mogguy,
You are entirely right, those two opinions cannot both be *objectively* right. But the mistake is in trying to rank them *objectively*. That whole enterprise is misconceived.
But people get really unhappy about that. They want their opinions and feelings to have the backing of objective standing. That’s why they invent gods to embody and reflect their opinions.
It’s a mistake to seek a top-down status for morals and laws, just as it is with political opinions.
The attempt is:
objective morality –> ethical frameworks –> humans laws.
That’s comparable to:
God’s dictats –> divine right of kings -> legitimate authority.
We’ve completely abandoned the latter, and instead have:
people’s desires and opinions –> democratic elections -> legitimate government.
This is a bottom-up conception as opposed to a top-down one. Nowadays everyone accepts that.
But, for some reason, people get very unhappy about:
people’s feelings and desires –> influence on society –> collective moral norms and laws.
That again is a bottom-up conception. But it’s all there is. And it is *better* than a top-down (objective) conception of morals, just as democracy is *better* than divinely appointed kings.
But people are so wedded to *objective* morality that they want a top-down standard, a king or a god, to declare on “what is right” and to tell them what they “should do”. That’s entirely misconceived.
(And, if anyone thinks that anything in this comment is saying that morality or people’s feelings are unimportant, then they should realise that I’m saying the exact opposite: In an *objective* morality people’s feelings would be unimportant, just as the opinions of the serfs are unimportant under the divine right of kings. Under a subjective moral scheme, people’s feelings are of the highest importance, and indeed are the only thing that is important.)
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Hi Coel,
No, they simply believe there is a fact of the matter. Sam Harris, for example, does not want there to be a God or King, he just thinks that there are some ways of organising society that are objectively better than others. I think that is the way most people feel, even people who claim they don’t.
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Hi Robin,
Which is based purely on their *wanting* there to be an objective fact of the matter (one which, surprise surprise, happens to coincide with their own opinion!). Really, there is no actual argument for objective morality other than people being unhappy about there not being anything such.
If one ranks different outcomes by people’s subjective opinion, then — given that — there are indeed objective facts of the matter about what would produce outcomes higher up the rankings.
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What is a contentless moral?
Silly question. It’s like language. The ‘wireing’ for language is there, the content (grammar and words) varies.
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There are certain ‘evils’ that are pretty much common to u all – death, pain, confinement, etc. These ‘emotions’, if you like, are common. We don’t like them. They could form the basis of a common objective morality, such that we could judge that ‘honor killings’ are evil even though some cultures condone them.
While fear of the alpha may be an emotion at the root of ‘ought’ feelings for many [a], we need not accept that. A more rational basis might be better and produce less pain suffering and death.
It seems to me that ‘ought’ as an implicit ‘in order to’ attached to it. It’s almost grammatical like ‘allows to’ in English needs an object that is ‘allowed to’ [b].
‘Ought’ seems to imply consequences.
[a] Even decrepit cats hide when they pee where the ‘oughtn’t’ and ‘look guilty’ when caught.
[b] Philosophy allows to discuss ethics rationally –> Philosophy allows one to discuss ethics rationally (or perhaps not <;_)
Subject: [New comment] Ought implies can. Or does it?
Robin Herbert commented: "Hi Coel, But people are so wedded to *objective* morality that they want a top-down standard, a king or a god, to declare on “what is right” and to tell them what they “should do”. That’s entirely misconceived. No, they simply believe there "
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Hi synred,
It is a common misunderstanding that if something is widespread enough then it becomes objective. But “objective” here doesn’t mean “ubiquitous in humans”, it means “independent of human likes and dislikes”.
Thus, if every single child liked chocolate then their liking for chocolate would still be subjective (= a feature of their minds) and not objective (= independent of their minds).
You are entirely right that much about human nature is very widespread, and this does indeed lay the basis for a common, widely agreed upon morality. But this is a bottom-up morality, a subjective morality rooted in people’s feelings about how they wish to live. It is not an “objective” or top-down or moral-realist morality.
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Robin: You aren’t seriously trying to argue this with Coel are you? Haven’t you learned by now? Or do you actually enjoy being in the philosophical equivalent of Groundhog Day?
Interesting thought experiment: We could take a poll of peoples’ subjective opinions as to whether they ever want to read another word by Coel on ethics again. Imagine that the outcome is 90% “no” and 10% “yes.” On the basis of this overwhelming majority of subjective opinion, Coel is told to beat it.
Question: Would he argue against it? Would he say “you shouldn’t ban me, just because my remarks on ethics make most people want to swallow a bottle of pills”? And if so, on what grounds?
I jest of course. And I’m pretty sure Coel is quite popular around these parts. (It’s why I don’t comment much anymore, other than in very specific circumstances.)
I also happen to be a moral anti-realist — Just like Coel! The difference is that I take normativity seriously and understand that it is at the heart of ethical discourse. How to deal with it is a tough, difficult question and one, by the way, about which science will tell us absolutely nothing.
I cannot speak for EJ, but what *I* find difficult to take is the debunking quality that seems to characterize so much of the scientismist approach to ethics. “It’s nothing but …. (fill in your favorite neural chemicals) ” or “It all comes down to … (fill in your favorite evolutionary process) ” or “It’s just because we’re …. (fill in your favorite ape)” or — my favorite — “We have no idea, because those damned philosophers are so primitive and we haven’t handed the question over to science yet!” It is this sort of thing that is so offensive when one reads it, in the context of a moral conversation, in which one is talking about very grave, significant moral wrongs.
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Hi Coel,
No, in fact you are making just exactly the same mistake that Sam Harris made in “The Moral Landscape”.
It is very tempting to think that you can derive the ranking that you describe, but if you examine the what this would entail it ends up being circilar.
In order to get a ranking (or continuum as Harris called it) you have to get a way of comparison and this will necessarily involve a way of aggregating well-being across a group. Even if you have a way of more or less comparing subjective experience of being person to person, the choice of method of aggregating this across the group will depend on a choice of values and necessarily be subjective.
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It is objective that these emotions are common to humans. You can quibble that the emotions themselves are not ‘objective’. It would seem reasonable rational to basis morality on common, shared emotions.
Bloody word games!
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synred: So, what do we do with those societies/cultures whose common, shared emotions suggest that we should mutilate the genitals of young girls? How about when someone flees such a country and seeks asylum? (There have actually been such cases) Or societies/cultures whose common, shared emotions lead them to pass laws making homosexuality a death sentence?
And given that there are no common, shared emotions humanity-wide on these subjects, upon which culture’s common, shared emotions should we base morality?
There is a reason why approaches like Kant’s were so appealing and this is one of them.
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