Can evolution have a higher purpose? No.

Robert Wright, the author of The Moral Animal and a visiting professor of science and religion at Union Theological Seminary, has written a provocative article recently in the New York Times’ Stone column, entitled “Can evolution have a higher purpose?” His answer is a qualified and rather nuanced yes. Mine, as we shall see, is a decided no. But my no also comes with some qualifications. Our differences might be useful to those who want to think about the nature of science (the subject matter of philosophy of science) and the nature of the world (the subject matter of metaphysics).

The article begins with an extended quote by famed evolutionary biologist William Hamilton, who during an interview was asked by Wright whether he could conceive of evolution having a “transcendental” purpose. He answered: “Yes, yes. There’s one theory of the universe that I rather like — I accept it in an almost joking spirit — and that is that Planet Earth in our solar system is a kind of zoo for extraterrestrial beings who dwell out there somewhere. … Every now and then they see something which doesn’t look quite right — this zoo is going to kill itself off if they let you do this or that. … [so these extraterrestrials] insert a finger and just change some little thing. And maybe those are the miracles which the religious people like to so emphasize. I put it forward in an almost joking spirit. But I think it’s a kind of hypothesis that’s very, very hard to dismiss.”

I don’t know the degree to which Hamilton was indeed joking, but the “hypothesis” is very, very hard to dismiss, on scientific grounds, for the simple reason that it isn’t a (scientific) hypothesis at all. It’s just a poorly formulated logical possibility, and logical possibilities are much broader and more difficult to put to the test than scientific hypotheses. Moreover, the extraterrestrials don’t seem to have paid a lot of attention throughout 2016, or they would have intervened already, since this zoo is indeed going to kill itself off, if they leave it to its own devices.

Wright tells his readers not to focus on the concept of miracles, however, but rather “on the idea of ‘higher purpose’ — the idea that there’s some point to life on earth that emanates from something that is in some sense beyond it.”

If we do that, he suggests, we quickly dispel a number of what he calls myths about evolution. In order:

Myth number one: To say that there’s in some sense a “higher purpose” means there are “spooky forces” at work.

The Hamilton story is supposed to convince us that in order to talk of higher purpose one doesn’t have to talk about gods (the “spooky forces”), since evolution on earth could have been the result of a large scale experiment set up by alien scientists. That’s okay if you are not spooked by alien scientists, of course. But if the Hamiltonian joke turns out to be true it would also mean that we aren’t talking about “evolution” in anything like the sense in which biologists use the word. We would be looking instead at the result of an artificial experiment, which is very different.

Myth number two: To say that evolution has a purpose is to say that it is driven by something other than natural selection.

“Evolution can have a purpose even if it is a wholly mechanical, material process — that is, even if its sole engine is natural selection. After all, clocks have purposes.” Well, yes, but clocks are decidedly not the result of natural selection, but rather of intelligent design. And so would we be, if the Hamiltonian joke actually held in reality.

Myth number three: Evolution couldn’t have a purpose, because it doesn’t have a direction.

Here Wright argues that even the arch-enemy of directionality in evolution, Stephen Jay Gould, had to admit that evolution doesn’t move entirely in a stochastic fashion, since, for instance, it has pushed toward higher and higher complexity. This is correct, as Gould discussed at length in his wonderful Full House: The Spread of Excellence from Plato to Darwin. But Gould also provided a simple explanation for the increase over time in the complexity of biological organisms: they had to start simple (unless they were placed there by an intelligent designer), so the only way to go was more complex. It’s like a drunk starting a random walk from the exit of the bar. He’s bound to get further and further way from the bar and eventually wander into the street, despite the fact that he doesn’t mean to get there. Moreover, Gould reminded us that by far the most successful living beings on earth are among its simplest: bacteria. Or, as my professor of biophysics in college, Mario Ageno, often said, the goal of a bacterium is not to become a human being; it is to become two bacteria.

Also, if Hamilton’s aliens did set up an experiment on our planet they sure went through a lot of trouble to make it seem entirely natural, and if the point of the experiment was to see what intelligent beings capable of language would do with the “zoo,” then the aliens have a lot more patience than any earth scientist, not to mention that their equivalent of the National Science Foundation apparently doesn’t mind giving out grants that span billions of years…

Myth number four: If evolution has a purpose, the purpose must have been imbued by an intelligent being.

Wright arrives at this by way of physicist Lee Smolin’s idea of cosmological natural selection, an entirely hypothetical mechanism of “reproduction” of universes via black holes, that allegedly shows that natural selection can have a purpose even without any intelligent alien (or whatever) to guide it, the “purpose” being to produced more and more universes. (Please note that this is a meaning of “purpose” that really doesn’t go well with the normally accepted definition.) A variation on Smolin’s theory has been proposed by mathematician Louis Crane, who postulated that intelligent beings could actually interfere with and fine tune the cosmological process envisaged by Smolin, if their technology has developed to the point of producing black holes, at which point purpose would indeed be the right word.

First off, I think Smolin’s (highly speculative, definitely rejected by the majority of the physics community) mechanism has actually little to do with Darwinian natural selection, has I have argued in detail in the past. Second, if the black hole-making aliens did interfere with the process, obviously it wouldn’t be natural selection anymore, would it?

Wright continues: “Some philosophers are comfortable talking about animals having a ‘purpose’ imbued by natural selection (to spread their genes). So if biological evolution is a product of cosmological natural selection, it has a purpose in a defensible sense of that term — and we’re part of that purpose.”

Yes, but this is predicated on an ambiguous use of the word “purpose”: when biologists say that the purpose of an eye is to see, or that the purpose of sex is to spread one’s genes more effectively, they are talking entirely metaphorically, and to take them to mean “purpose” in the ordinary sense of the term is to confuse teleonomy (scientifically acceptable, within the Darwinian theory of evolution) with teleology (which applies scientifically only to human intentions, and to intelligent aliens, if they exist).

Let’s take stock of what we have so far, before we move to an entirely different argument made by Wright in his article.

None of the above seems to me to amount to the conclusion that evolution may have a transcendental purpose. This is not because it isn’t conceivable that an advanced alien civilization has set up our planet as a gigantic petri dish to satisfy their own scientific curiosity. That scenario is indeed conceivable, though there is neither a shred of evidence nor an iota of reason to take it seriously. (I do think Hamilton was joking.) Rather, it is because if the scenario were true we would not have evolution in the sense of a natural process explained by the Darwinian theory. We would be in the presence, instead, of an intelligently designed experiment, our scientific explanation of it would be entirely wrong, and in fact we would be in a position similar to that of an undergraduate student who has been recruited for a psychology experiment of which he is the subject, and the purpose of which has to be obscure to him, on penalty of the experiment itself being hopelessly biased.

Now to the second part of Wright’s article, and his argument that there is “a growing openness among some scientifically minded people to the possibility that our world has a purpose that was imparted by an intelligent being. I’m referring to ‘simulation’ scenarios.”

Ah yes, the infamous “simulation hypothesis” put forth by philosopher Nick Bostrom and believed by luminaries of modern metaphysics like David Chalmers. I have explained in the past why I dont’ think this is a reasonable scientific hypothesis or philosophical scenario at all, though apparently none other than “philosophy is a waste of time” Neil deGrasse Tyson, somehow, finds it plausible.

Regardless, I think Wright makes a very good point when he writes: “When an argument for higher purpose is put this way — that is, when it doesn’t involve the phrase ‘higher purpose’ and, further, is cast more as a technological scenario than a metaphysical one — it is considered intellectually respectable. … Yet the simulation hypothesis is a God hypothesis … Theology has entered ‘secular’ discourse under another name.”

That strikes me as exactly right. And I’d like to hear what a number of skeptics and new atheists, who tend to like talking about the simulation hypothesis at cocktail parties as if it were a serious possibility, but react with contempt to any mention of gods and intelligent design, would react to that suggestion.

Would they attempt to draw some kind of metaphysical line between God and the Simulators? But on what grounds? Not only the Simulators would for all effective purposes be gods to us, they also would literally be outside (our) space and time, just like the classic Christian God.

Seems to me that Wright’s argument presents a fundamental dilemma to the secular minded: either accept, as Wright suggests, that theology has entered secular discourse, or relegate the simulation hypothesis to the status of a religion for nerds (similarly to the way I suggested multiple times that the related idea of mind uploading is a secular version of the Rapture). I think the reader knows which way I’m inclined to go without need for me to spell it out.

229 thoughts on “Can evolution have a higher purpose? No.

  1. Robin Herbert

    Hi Coel,

    “Yes it is. And, following from that statement, Occam says not to add features to a model without evidence. ”

    No, Occam simply says that if the thing you have to be explained, can be explained using X, Y and Z, then X, Y and Z is all you need and you don’t need to go looking for some U, V and W to add to the explanation. The parsimony of a model can be evaluated even before gathering the evidence.

    In any case, positing the possibility of certain technologies existing somewhere in the Universe, or that they will exist sometime, is not adding features to the model, it is merely speculating on the forms existing feature might exist.

    So the statement that we cannot tell if we are in a simulation or not does not add any new features.

    On the other hand a claim that their is some principle in nature that would preclude or limit the frequency of Universe simulator technology really would be adding a new feature to the model and would thus be unparsimonious.

    But you don’t need any new principle of nature to have Universe simulators, the ones we have already allow for these and so the possibility does not multiply entities.

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  2. Coel

    Robin,

    No, Occam simply says that if the thing you have to be explained, can be explained using X, Y and Z, then X, Y and Z is all you need and you don’t need to go looking for some U, V and W to add to the explanation.

    Exactly. Now, to repeat and expand on a previous comment.

    “There are people named Paul” has lower information than: “There are people named Paul and a person named Paul is currently sitting in my living room”. Occam says don’t add on the “… and a person named Paul is currently sitting in my living room” without evidence.

    We have an X: “There might be other technology developing societies”.

    The simulation hypothesis is adding a W, namely: “that possibility is indeed realised; and some such beings are in charge of Earth”. Occam says don’t add that on without good reason.

    It is not the “simulation is in principle possible” that needs evidence, it is the “and such beings are in charge of Earth”, just as the statement “a person named Paul is currently sitting in my living room” adds in information content beyond “There are people named Paul”.

    Anyway, I’ve already repeated myself a couple of times in this thread, so will try to avoid further replies about this. (I should know by now that you’re just going to dive down one of your rabbit holes, as you did on Newcomb’s boxes, and as you did in your quite-spectacular refusal to get the point as to what “functionally equivalent” means.)

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  3. brodix

    The question might be asked whether overall top down causes exist. Which raises the issue of the difference between top down and bottom up.

    I would say bottom up is causal, in that it provides momentum and motivation. The energy and drive.

    Top down is informative. The feedback and interaction generated by this dynamic. So top down can certainly seem causal, when it overrides our point of observation. The position of authority that has been generated through constant feedback. Also being generated by feedback, it is inherently complex.

    Since we are all extremely finite, mortal and limited individual creatures, this larger momentum is usually overwhelming.

    So either we go along with the larger order and become part of it, absorbing the authority and molded by it, as being part of a larger movement, religion, politics, school, belief, etc. Or we can find some point of balance between competing authorities. Otherwise it’s best not to play in the traffic.

    Liked by 1 person

  4. Robin Herbert

    Coel,

    You have repeated yourself, yes, and each time I have pointed out where you are wrong.

    You are confusing Occam’s razor with the rule not to claim things without evidence.

    They are two different principles. If X, Y and Z explain what you need explaining then W is unnecessary no matter how much evidence there is for W .

    Also there is no version of the simulation argument that relies upon the premise that people who can simulate the Universe are in charge of the Earth. So you are not even referring to any argument that has been proposed by anyone.

    I am surprised you didn’t familiarise with it.

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  5. Disagreeable Me (@Disagreeable_I)

    Hi Coel, Robin,

    I think you’re both right in your own way.

    Coel, you’re right that “There is this world” is less parsimonious than “There is this world, and there is also an external real world which is simulating this world”. But, strictly speaking, “There is this world” is not a refutation of the simulation argument. It is agnostic towards the simulation argument. It is equivalent to “There is this world, which may or may not be simulated”.

    This line of thinking ignores the reasoning that leads to the conclusion that the world is likely to be simulated. Occam’s razor only allows you to ignore ideas that have no reasons to support them — this is not the case in the case of the simulation hypothesis. To dismiss the simulation argument you need to engage with that argument — Occam’s razor applied to the conclusion is not enough. I say this without endorsing the conclusion of the simulation argument, by the way.

    Robin, in answer to your question, the way it may be concluded that this world is not a simulation is by rejecting some aspect of the simulation argument (such as the notion that a simulation can be conscious, or the idea that it is even meaningful to ask whether we are in a simulation) or finding one of the other two alternatives in its trilemma to be more plausible, i.e. that it never becomes feasible or sufficiently worthwhile to conduct exhaustive world simulations or that we become extinct before we get to such a stage.

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  6. Massimo Post author

    Coel,

    Robin is quite obviously right about this. Occam concerns explanations not plausibility, period. All sorts of things are plausible but they would be (provisionally) rejected on the basis of Occam, if actually put forth as explanations of something.

    So, if Bob is saying that it is possible that natural selection may turn out to be a guided process, the answer is obviously yes, and Occam has nothing to do with it.

    But if he claims that some sort of intelligent design is a better explanations for the facts of biology as we have them, then no, Occam cuts through that.

    Also, don’t forget synred’s reminder: Occam is a heuristic, not a logical principle.

    Liked by 2 people

  7. Massimo Post author

    DM,

    Of course it is logically possible that what we call “natural” selection turns out to be an alien experient, or part of a cosmic simulation. In that case, however, I wouldn’t call it natural selection — and it isn’t the trivial point you are making it to be, because it would mean that our scientific understanding of the world is way way off.

    But you are right, as Dan is, that there is no reason or evidence in favor of any of Bob’s scenarios.

    I don’t see the distinction you are making between god and the simulation. It hinges on the different motivations of people for believing one or the other, but why do motivations matter? Metaphysically speaking there is no discernible difference between the two, which is why die hard atheists really do have to put up or shut up, so to speak: either admit, as Bob says, that theology has entered secular discourse in different form, or reject the simulation and similar notions as rupture for nerds. I really don’t see any other alternative.

    Clocks are not a process, they are objects that — when functioning properly — engage in a process, that of telling time. Similarly, living organisms (which have been analogized to clocks, as you know) are objects, which however engage in a number of processes. Natural selection, by contrast, is not an object at all. I really don’t see why Bob makes that analogy in the first place.

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  8. Robin Herbert

    The main premise of the simulation argument, is basically “IF [ simulated minds vastly outnumber real minds ] THEN [ we are almost certainly products of a simulation]”

    The truth or otherwise of that premise does not depend on any way on the existence or even the possibility of such simulations.

    It is usually followed by discussion about the reasons that simulations might predominate and sometimes with a qualified or conditional conclusion that does not make any assumption that we are simulated.

    To my knowledge there is no one who actually makes the claim: “[Simulated minds vastly outnumber real minds]” but if someone did then obviously this is a claim that requires evidence.

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  9. Robin Herbert

    Hi Massimo,

    But if he claims that some sort of intelligent design is a better explanations for the facts of biology as we have them, then no, Occam cuts through that.

    Yes, a classic example of multiplying entities without necessity.

    If there somehow became available evidence of an intelligent designer then we would still be scratching our heads working out what role she had in the whole process.

    Liked by 1 person

  10. Disagreeable Me (@Disagreeable_I)

    Hi Massimo,

    but why do motivations matter?

    Because the motivations and bad reasoning underlying theology is the reason it is so damning to accuse one of engaging in theology, not simply because theology posits a creator. If it really were the most reasonable thing to believe in the simualtion hypothesis (following Bostrom’s argument), then the mere fact that our simulators would effectively be Gods to us is no criticism at all of the simulation argument.

    either admit, as Bob says, that theology has entered secular discourse in different form

    Perhaps theism has entered secular discourse in different form, but not the motivated reasoning of theology. Bostrom’s is a careful and thoughtful philosophical argument.

    Whether the simulation hypotheses entails theism is debatable — it depends how one defines God. Our creators would be beings much like ourselves on the simulation argument, not omnipotent or omniscient (in their own spheres at least), and they themselves would either be created by another level of creator or have arisen naturally. They wouldn’t be the causes of their own existence or necessary timeless beings the way theologians often say God is.

    Clocks are not a process, they are objects that — when functioning properly — engage in a process, that of telling time.

    Quibbling. You can take Bob to be making the analogy to that process then — the process of measuring time by the interaction of a number of sophisticated interacting parts. Whether clocks are the best analogy is questionable, but that there are designed, artificial processes is not. And it is logically possible (though certainly false in the real world) that natural selection could be one of them.

    All in all, I am persuaded by Bob’s point that we can’t rule out the possibility a priori that there could be purpose in what we call natural selection. That’s really all he’s saying in this article, and that just means that we can’t say that it is meaningless to debate whether there is purpose. But I think Bob would surely lose that debate, because there is no reason to believe in such a purpose. And that ought to be enough for any self-respecting secular humanist/biologist.

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  11. Coel

    Massimo,

    Robin is quite obviously right about this. Occam concerns explanations not plausibility, period. All sorts of things are plausible but they would be (provisionally) rejected on the basis of Occam, if actually put forth as explanations of something.

    Yes, exactly. That is exactly what I have been saying. Occam is not about whether something is logically possible or not. As I said early on: Occam’s razor is a probabilistic argument about the likelihood of an explanation being correct.

    Also, don’t forget synred’s reminder: Occam is a heuristic, not a logical principle.

    No, it is a probablistic argument, a strong probabilistic argument on a sound footing.

    And while I’m on:

    And yes, [science] does change with time and culture, as disturbing as it may be to an essentialist like you.

    I am not an essentialist about science. But, given your “science is as scientists do” definition of science, and quoting your OP:

    … the “hypothesis” is very, very hard to dismiss, on scientific grounds, for the simple reason that it isn’t a (scientific) hypothesis at all. It’s just a poorly formulated logical possibility, and logical possibilities are much broader and more difficult to put to the test than scientific hypotheses.

    That amounts to: it is hard to dismiss on scientific grounds because it isn’t the sort of thing that scientist do. And it’s harder to test the sort of hypothesis that scientists do not test because scientists do not test that sort of hypothesis. Which seems to me to be a non-argument.

    Again, we can indeed discount the idea that evolution on Earth is an experiment set up by aliens because — to quote you — “… you are right, as Dan is, that there is no reason or evidence in favor of any of Bob’s scenarios”. Which is a scientific discounting of the possibility by the application of Occam, exactly as science regularly does with un-evidenced extras added on to models.

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  12. Disagreeable Me (@Disagreeable_I)

    Hi Robin,

    To my knowledge there is no one who actually makes the claim: “[Simulated minds vastly outnumber real minds]”

    Elon Musk does! He seems to think that the odds that this universe is not simulated is billions to one. To me, frankly, this is crazy. It is either a mistake or an act of astonishing arrogance, for instance, for him to place the odds that he is misunderstanding the argument or otherwise reasoning incorrectly at billions to one, as he must if we are to take his conclusion at face value.

    Liked by 1 person

  13. SocraticGadfly

    Per Massimo, no, it’s not beside the point, DM. As he notes in more detail, that’s the whole point of the naturalistic approach. It’s either the naturalistic approach … or it’s not. And, otherwise, a clock is a mechanism, not a process.

    Liked by 1 person

  14. Disagreeable Me (@Disagreeable_I)

    Socratic,

    As he notes in more detail, that’s the whole point of the naturalistic approach.

    So you can take Bob to be arguing for the possibility that this way of conceiving of the naturalistic approach is false — although that doesn’t necessarily mean that metaphysical naturalism is false. Our creators could be natural.

    That should be up for debate, even if I think he’s wrong.

    And, otherwise, a clock is a mechanism, not a process.

    It is a mechanism. And its parts engage in a process. That process is artificial. So some processes are artificial. So the fact that natural selection is a process doesn’t mean it can’t be an artifiical process, and that one wanting to make such an argument might make entirely appropriate analogies to artificial processes such as those going on in a clock. Right?

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  15. Haulianlal Guite

    Hi Massimo,

    // Despite Coel’s willfully uncharitable interpretation of my comment about funding agencies, the fact remains that a hypothesis has scientific status when the scientific community takes it seriously. Which usually does mean that someone either has or is trying to get funding to explore it. //

    I find this sociological grounding of “science as funded science” (i can’t see it any other way) highly distasteful. My sensibilities do not count as an argument of course; however, if more people started accepting it, i will begin seriously addressing it.

    // Of course we don’t have a priori means to dismiss the god hypothesis. But that’s the wrong question. Do we have any reason to consider it? Does it have any substance? The answer to the first one is: no. The answer to the second one is: no. The god hypotheses explains precisely nothing. It simply moves the mystery one goal post over. //

    To say “The god hypothesis explains precisely nothing” assumes, first, that the concept of God is a scientific hypothesis of some sort (it is not, being non-empirical), and second, that it must explain things the same way Newton’s 2nd law explains the behaviour of matter.
    The second point is completely illegitimate: it is no different from blaming political science for its inability to explain the thermodynamic behaviour of atoms.

    Point? The concept of God explains so many things in so many non-empirical ways, none of which contradict scientific explanations. It gives a non-scientific explanation of why humans suffer, why humans are mortal, why x happens at y at t time the way it does, so on and so forth. Now, granted, these are not testable like scientific statements (itself a dubious claim, which i will charitably grant here); but it does perform so many other functions for so many millions, albeit in non-scientific ways.

    So do not entertain God as a scientific hypothesis meant to give an empirical account of the cosmos in the first place (which would only be God-of-the-gaps); then, other things will fall in place.

    Finally, to give a clear answer to the heading of this article. To answer whether evolution can have a higher purpose, wherein “can” is interpreted to mean “logically can” and not the uninteresting “empirically can”, you simply have to answer this: can you imbue a higher purpose to evolution without once questioning a single data of evolution? if no (meaning evolution contradicts teleology), then yes, evolution cannot have a higher purpose. but if yes (meaning the belief in teleology nowhere contradicts any aspect of evolutionary biology), it follows that, yes, evolution can have a higher purpose indeed.

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  16. Daniel Kaufman

    “To answer whether evolution can have a higher purpose, wherein “can” is interpreted to mean “logically can” and not the uninteresting “empirically can”, you simply have to answer this: can you imbue a higher purpose to evolution without once questioning a single data of evolution?”

    =====

    You’ve got your “interesting” and “uninteresting” backwards.

    Liked by 2 people

  17. Haulianlal Guite

    // You’ve got your “interesting” and “uninteresting” backwards.//

    a matter of taste. i find empirical science to be as metaphysically interesting as the football game: of very little relevance, and mostly illustrative rather than definitive,or perhaps not even that informative.

    that said, the point still stands.

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  18. Daniel Kaufman

    “A matter of taste.”

    Er…no it isn’t. Not with respect to the current subject.

    As for the point, it is, at best elusive. At least given what is ordinarily meant by an “explanation.”

    Now, if you’d said that religion provides narratives that allow a person to perceive things as meaningful, I’d agree with that, but that has nothing to do with explanations of any kind.

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  19. Haulianlal Guite

    //As for the point, it is, at best elusive. At least given what is ordinarily meant by an “explanation.”//

    Now this runs the danger of semantic hair-splitting, but here’s at least 10 ways the word “explanation” is used for:

    An egg boils because of the ideal gas laws (a physical-mechanistic explanation);
    An egg boils because my wife boils it (a physical-agency explanation);
    An egg boils because the state allows eggs to be boiled (a political explanation);
    An egg boils because it is a possible empirical event, and therefore, we happen to live in the universe where an egg boils (many worlds’ interpretation of quantum mechanics);
    An egg boils because God allows an egg to boil (a supernatural-agency explanation);
    An egg boils because a supernatural force called ‘hatna’ permits the egg to boil (a supernatural-mechanistic explanation);
    An egg boils because Harry Potter waves his magic wand and boils it (a fantasy explanation);
    An egg boils because you have the guts to boil it where many others do not (a macho explanation, for example, in Russia);
    An egg boils because the oven is accidentally switched on (an accidental explanation);
    An egg boils because we want to eat it (a dietary explanation);
    An egg boils because boiling egg is an integral part of our culture (a cultural explanation).

    These are all explanations that are valid under certain parameters, the best part of which is that they are consistent with one another. That is, one explanation does not rule out the others; they can all be true together, albeit not necessarily in the same sense.

    So, unless you rule by fiat that only the first type of explanation is a “real” explanation (in which case the burden is on you to argue the case out, since I just shown you 9 other ways the word ‘explanation’ may be predicated with), there is nothing wrong with attributing God as an explanation for things, including why egg boils.

    Since, one, this does not rule out mechanistic and scientific explanations, indeed – has nothing to do with such explanations; and second, God is an explanation in a very different sense than in science, therefore is sensible in some other non-scientific way …

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  20. Massimo Post author

    Socratic,

    Thanks for the reminder of not feeding beast(s), but I’ll remind you that my goal in this forum is to talk to a number of people simultaneously, I realize perfectly well that Coel is beyond possibility of convincing, or even moving by a fraction of an inch. Good old time application of induction has taught me that beyond reasonable doubt. But when I talk to him I’m actually addressing a broader audience that may entertain his position, and who may be persuaded in changing their mind.

    Haulianlal,

    The fact that you find sociology of science distasteful is, frankly, entirely irrelevant. Science is a human activity, and what counts as “scientific” is whatever the science communities counts as such. it is a community of humans, which means it is fallible, and it changes its standards over time, because science itself evolves — as any social activity does. So, asking the question in the abstract, as Coel does, is nonsensical.

    Liked by 4 people

  21. Coel

    Massimo,

    So, asking the question in the abstract, as Coel does, is nonsensical.

    I’m not asking the question in the abstract. I’m simply suggesting that a “scientific hypothesis” is one that could in principle be addressed by the methods and tools that we currently call “science”.

    Take my previous example from physics. Hypothesis: there is an absolute standard of rest. No physicist today takes that hypothesis seriously, given the huge array of empirical data against that idea and in favour of Einsteinian relativity. No funding body would entertain a grant proposal to investigate the idea (not without a seriously good reason why current physics would be mistaken).

    So, under your interpretation, “there is an absolute standard of rest” is not a scientific hypothesis and thus, according to what you’ve said, would be very hard to test and evaluate scientifically. Yet that’s just weird, it’s precisely because one can easily investigate it scientifically, and thus reject it, that it is now rejected. Nothing about the idea is outside the scope of science.

    Haulianlal Guite,

    It’s likely foolish of me to ask, but:

    there is nothing wrong with attributing God as an explanation for things, including why egg boils.

    How does one assess the merits of that explanation and its likelihood of being true, as opposed to your alternative: “An egg boils because Harry Potter waves his magic wand and boils it”?

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  22. SocraticGadfly

    Massimo, got it.

    DM: Yes. I’ve cited before the episode of the original version of Star Trek, where the Enterprise crew is waylaid by “Apollo.” This is where Wittgenstein (that’s your cue, Dan) and philosophy of religion both come in, via Arthur C. Clarke.

    Clarke, of course, famously said: “Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.”

    One might try to riff on that, as “Any sufficiently advanced being is indistinguishable from a deity.” I personally would reject that, on the ideas that religion has traditionally truckled in ideas of divinities as having specific metaphysical aspects, not just being “advanced.”

    Others, though, might claim differently.

    That said, per “Apollo,” if one takes raw power, not metaphysics, as the starting point for defining divinity …

    However, given Wright’s various books, I know that’s not his stance. So, to the matter at hand, he seems to be claiming theistic evolution, which is not natural selection.

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  23. Daniel Kaufman

    Haulianlal:

    The subject is evolution — a natural phenomenon — and its relationship to the development of species, including our own. This renders most of your list of “explanations” irrelevant and thus, “uninteresting.”

    Liked by 1 person

  24. Haulianlal Guite

    Hi Massimo.

    //The fact that you find sociology of science distasteful is, frankly, entirely irrelevant. Science is a human activity, and what counts as “scientific” is whatever the science communities counts as such.//

    I already agreed my sensibilities did not count as an explanation. I only indicated my distaste in taking it seriously even, since the implications are just horrendous. It is not really a matter of fallibility as it is of the implication of incommensurability. I’m sure you are patently aware of this, but perhaps its worth repeating. For if the standards of science change overtime, meaning our conceptions of science can be incommensurate, depending ultimately on the community’s standards, and there is no objective standard as such, why will i care to align my beliefs with the standards of the current community of scientists?

    I may as well wait or predict that a new community will accept the legitimacy of a cosmic laboratory hypothesis; and if someone dares to tell me I have no grounds for making such prediction, I may further say my current personal intuition itself will be the future ground, and not our current conception of empirically grounding our claims. In other words, any claim may be justifiable by attributing it to some future standard.

    Further, what if a totalitarian government (imagine a sovietized world) were to impose a certain standard for science? why should that standard be less illicit than the one consented upon by a group of scientists? And which group? What, indeed, would even count as a group? 90% of relevant scientists, or 92%? Who, indeed, will even count as scientists? Will Trump university doctorates, or ID institute fellas?

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  25. Haulianlal Guite

    Hi Kaufman.

    // The subject is evolution — a natural phenomenon — and its relationship to the development of species, including our own. This renders most of your list of “explanations” irrelevant and thus, “uninteresting.” //

    And my point is that teleological explanations are not evolutionary explanations at all, but just added to it. Like concrete on a brick. The two simply share nothing in common since teleology is non-empirical while evolution is, so the two will always be consistent, and will never rule each other out.

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  26. Disagreeable Me (@Disagreeable_I)

    Hi Socratic,

    However, given Wright’s various books, I know that’s not his stance. So, to the matter at hand, he seems to be claiming theistic evolution, which is not natural selection.

    And I’m sure I would disagree with his wider argument. But not with the position he is advancing here, which is just that the idea that there could be purpose behind evolution should at least be on the table for discussion.

    I agree with you that this is likely to be a tactic, a thin end of the wedge by which he will bring in subsequent arguments I would disagree with, but I wouldn’t make my stand here.

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  27. Daniel Kaufman

    Given the size of “logically possible” space, there is no table large enough to keep all the logically possibles on. Evolution might have been started by My Little Pony characters. I see no reason to keep such a suggestion “on the table.”

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  28. Haulianlal Guite

    Hi Coel.

    // How does one assess the merits of that explanation and its likelihood of being true, as opposed to your alternative: “An egg boils because Harry Potter waves his magic wand and boils it”? //

    Not sure myself … just indicating the various ways the word “explanation” gets predicated with. However, a suggestion is that, maybe it can be assessed relationally: how it fits with the other explanations (though in case it doesn’t fit, the larger question of which one to reject may rise).

    Also, its possible you can have different standards of assessment (a position i may subscribe to) since the parameters that contextualize them are different (for example, point 1 has). the parameter of empirical testability for example, while point 6 does not). however, this will not satisfy the realist (fortunately i’m not).

    the more important point is that these explanations are mutually exclusive, so they cannot contradict each other. Therefore, you can accept all of them without denying a single data of science; or you can accept one, or some.

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