After having spent some posts examining Paul Feyerabend’s Philosophy of Nature, it’s time to tackle the second entry in Footnotes to Plato’s book club: Julian Baggini’s The Edge of Reason, A Rational Skeptic in an Irrational World. Julian is a founding editor of The Philosophers’ Magazine, and has written a number of acclaimed books in popular philosophy before. The Edge of Reason attempts to strike a, well, reasonable balance between fashionable postmodernist-inspired rejection of rationality (which, arguably, gave us the dreadful age of “post-truth”) and the older and equally unsupportable rationalist-positivist faith in reason’s essentially unlimited powers.
The book is divided into four sections: “My positive case for rationality requires taking us through four key myths of rationality, all of which can be traced back to Plato. These myths are: that reason is purely objective and requires no subjective judgement; that it can and should take the role of our chief guide, the charioteer of the soul; that it can furnish us with the fundamental reasons for action; and that we can build society on perfectly rational principles.”
I initially thought of devoting one post to each section, covering three chapters each for the first three sections, and two chapters for the fourth one. But it looks like I will actually have to write an essay per chapter, so this is going to take a whopping 11 posts. I hope you’ll bear with me (and Julian), it is worth it. While my commentary is meant as a series of stand alone essays, it would, of course, be helpful if the reader actually got the book and followed along. Who knows, hopefully Julian himself will drop by from time to time to add his thoughts to the ongoing discussion.
So let’s begin with chapter 1, entitled “The eternal God argument.” Julian opens the chapter echoing my own thoughts on participating to “debates” about the existence of God. Like him, I initially was enthusiastic about engaging theologians like William Lane Craig, but have become weary of the exercise. Though these events are presented to the public as intellectual contests, in reality they are more akin to sports events where few people change their mind, the audience simply cheers for one “team” or the other, and the outcome hinges more on self presentation, rhetoric and a good sense of humor than on actual philosophy.
Interestingly, Julian argues that the same atmosphere permeates the academic world of philosophy of religion, were very smart people argue over very fine points, with no inkling of ever changing their mind about their fundamental position, religious or atheist that it may be.
As he puts it, “when, for instance, an atheist comes across a clever new version of an argument for the existence of God which she cannot refute, she does not say ‘Ah! So now I must believe in God!’ Rather, she says, ‘That’s clever. There must be something wrong with it. Give me time and I’ll find out what that is.'” And the exact same approach characterizes clever theologians, like Richard Swinburne or Alvin Plantinga.
Julian suggests — and I wholly agree — that the reason for this situation has nothing to do with people’s hypocrisy or bad faith, but rather with the fact that people’s beliefs are largely impervious to minutiae and depend instead on the broad strokes characterizing a given issue. Take, as a completely different example, climate change. I “believe” in it, and I have no patience for “skeptics” who spend inordinate amounts of time trying to find small holes in the major argument. That’s not because I don’t care about other people’s opinions, or because one cannot, in fact, identify gaps in our understanding of the issue. It is because I have been convinced, long ago, by the big picture, the major reasons and pieces of evidence that point to the reality of global warming. For me to change my mind it would require the equivalent of an epistemic earthquake which, though possible, is extremely unlikely. And Julian’s point is that my attitude isn’t that of an entrenched and close minded bigot, but rather very, very reasonable. The problem is that the same can be said of people on the other side of the debate. They are also convinced by their understanding of the big picture, and no amount of detail put forth by me in the course of an argument is going to make a dent into their general view.
So, if you want to understand why people hold to certain opinions and worldviews you should apply the “end of the day” test: ask them what, at the end of the day, are the pillars on which their convictions stand. Ignore the details, go big.
Julian hastens to say that this is not a post-modernist position at all: “That is not to say there can be no rational argument at all between people for whom what seems obvious is very different. I would argue for the superior obviousness of belief that religion is a human construct. This obviousness does not rely on subjective feeling alone, but on the mass of evidence which is available to all.” The problem is that “to the naturalist it seems obvious which type of obviousness carries most weight. … But as we shall shortly see, this is not at all obvious to everyone.”
Julian is critical of what he sees as the academic pretense that the fine details of arguments put forth by professional philosophers actually matter. They don’t, and an honest academic — regardless of whether he is a theist or an atheist — would admit that. But admitting it would also undermine the very meaning of these people’s life work, an obviously psychologically unpalatable thing to do. Baggini comments: “After all, the more nuanced the argument, the more scope for sophistry.” Indeed.
The next important, and oft-neglected, point is that both believers and non-believers are committed to the use of reason. Very few people go around priding themselves on being irrational. But this doesn’t provide a lot of common ground, because the two sides begin their reasoning with radically different, and mutually incompatible, assumptions and premises.
Take, for instance, Plantinga’s famous assertion that belief in God is “properly basic,” meaning that it is a perfectly legitimate starting point for constructing one’s own worldview.
“Plantinga’s argument is that everyone has to accept that some beliefs are basic in order to believe anything at all. However, not just any belief can be considered basic, or there would be no way of distinguishing sense from nonsense. I cannot just assert, for example, that I take the existence of Santa Claus to be basic. So which beliefs can be accepted as properly basic?”
That question is much harder to address, and one’s preferred answer much harder to defend and justify, than it may appear at first glance. Still, once we accept that people do assume a certain number of “properly” basic beliefs (whether they do or don’t seem “proper” to us) it becomes immediately obvious why it is the broad picture, not the fine details, that matter. As Julian says, “where the conflict really lies is right down at the very bases of why people believe what they do, yet the war is fought over the beliefs that flow from them.”
Baggini points out that this idea of properly basic belief is known in epistemology as foundationalism, and it is deeply problematic. He explains the problem by way of an analogy with heath studies. Suppose you have always believed, on the basis of what you read, that drinking a glass of wine a day is actually good for your blood circulation. Now a new study appears to contradict that finding, and you have to evaluate what to do: do you throw away your previously held belief and accept the logical consequences of the new study? Or do you ignore the new findings because they go against the bedrock you have used to guide your behavior so far? But if so, on what grounds?
The answer isn’t simple. It is possible that the new study is so much better, based on a far wider number of subjects and more rigorous protocols, that the rational thing to do would indeed be to overturn your previous belief about health and drinking wine. But it is also reasonable to suspend judgment over the most recent findings precisely because they appear to contradict a well established notion. Perhaps the best approach is to open your mind to some skepticism about the health benefits of wine drinking, and yet await confirmation (or not!) of the new study before actually changing your behavior. That is, our positions ought to be examined within the broader context of our assumptions and of many other positions we hold, what Quine called the “web” of our belief. While some thread of the web appear more secure, and it is therefore rational not to question them on the basis of the latest news, at some point additional discoveries may become weighty enough to justify the replacement and removal of even the thickest threads of our epistemological web.
The point is that “to understand why arguments rarely lead people to change their minds in many intellectual disputes we have to understand the holistic nature of reasoning. We believe what we do because of a number of overlapping and mutually reinforcing reasons and arguments, rarely because one settles the issue either way.”
While Julian considers himself a “coherentist,” as opposed to a foundationalist, he also agrees that some beliefs within the overall web are, in a sense, more fundamental, i.e., much harder to replace, than others. He cites Bertrand Russell on this: “[C]oherence presupposes the truth of the laws of logic. Two propositions are coherent when both may be true and are incoherent when one at least must be false. Now in order to know whether two propositions can both be true, we must know such truths as the law of contradiction. But if the law of contradiction itself were subjected to the test of coherence, we should find that, if we choose to suppose it false, nothing will any longer be incoherent with anything else. Thus the laws of logic supply the skeleton or framework within which the test of coherence applies, and they themselves cannot be established by this test.”
The difference, then, between foundationalism and coherentism isn’t that only foundationalists accept the notion of properly basic beliefs, but rather than they cannot ever question such beliefs, on penalty of the whole edifice collapsing, while coherentists can, from time to time, and when the evidence is overwhelming, go back and contemplate the refinement, or even replacement, of one of their formerly secure beliefs.
Baggini has a nice way to put it: “The principle of non-contradiction, for example, is not upheld because we can know it to be self-evidently true in isolation, but because we can see that without it, no web of belief can hold together. [Such beliefs] are indispensable rather than indisputable.”
The last section of the chapter deals with yet another reason why people may engage in honest debate about fundamental disagreements and never concede their opponents’ point: much public discourse is framed as an exercise in apologetics, not as an open, Socratic, inquiry. Apologetics is in the business of finding rational arguments to defend a position held a priori, while Socratic inquiry, at its best (and regardless of whether Socrates himself actually practiced it) is about exploring the issues with a truly open mind.
One example of apologetics is the defense of the Christian concept of the Trinity, which is “a somewhat paradoxical doctrine, since it asserts that each of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit is God, but the Father is neither the Son nor the Holy Spirit, the Son is neither the Father nor the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is neither the Father nor the Son.” Baggini continues: “This would appear to defy the most basic principles of logic. According to standard logic, if (A = B) and (B = C) then (A = C). So, for example, if Bill Clinton is the 42nd President of the United States of America and the 42nd President of the United States of America is the father of Chelsea Clinton, then Bill Clinton must be the father of Chelsea. The doctrine of the Trinity defies this apparently inexorable logic. The Father is God and God is the Son but the Father is not the Son. The work of apologetics is therefore to show how this circle can be squared.” And there is a lot of this work to be found in the literature, even though my own web of beliefs very clearly rejects it as nonsense on stilts (but carried out by very, very clever people).
Or take the famous problem of evil insofar the existence of an all-knowing, all-powerful, God who is present everywhere. Plenty of philosophers and atheists have pointed out that this is a serious, even fatal problem for the Judeo-Christian-Islamic conception of God, particularly when talking about “natural” as opposed to human evil (since the latter, but not the former, can be accounted for by way of the free will defense). The theologian’s response boils down to the fact that this is indeed a mystery, which is something that positively enrages the atheist.
But as Baggini points out, there is nothing at all scandalous in admitting that one’s worldview has holes. Science itself has plenty of holes, some of which are gaping (for instance in current debates in fundamental physics). And yet scientists think — reasonably — that they have plenty of excellent reasons to still hold to the near-truth of quantum mechanics and general relativity, even while being conscious of the fact that the two theories are incompatible. Christians adopt a similar position, insofar as their own conception of the world is concerned.
The chapter concludes with this gem: “the fact that we know reason will not convince everyone is beside the point. Whether an argument is sound or whether it is persuasive are two different questions. It should come as no surprise that good rational arguments often fail to persuade people. The case for reason is not that it is always psychologically efficacious but that it genuinely helps us towards the truth. However, just as you can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it drink, so you can lead a mind to reason but you cannot make it think.” Indeed.

Haulianlal Guite: Yeah, I named him “Fonzie” because of that character’s famous and hilarious inability to utter the words “I was wrong.” There is a great episode, where Ralph Malph is going off to the Marines or something, where Fonzie tries to say it and it keeps coming out like “I was wwrrerrnnn…” He finally gives up and says “I wasn’t exactly right.”
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DM:
//Because x (the truth we are approximating) is the behaviour of the physical world, and we do have incomplete knowledge of the behaviour of the physical world: we can test how the physical world behaves in experiment.//
You throw in an entire philosophy of science in this realistic line, how am I to respond in 3 paras?! Well, let me try.
What if the scientific model you use to describe the behaviour of the world, makes sense only within the models they appear? What if subatomic particles don’t “exist”, but that it makes sense to include these entities in our models to account for certain behaviours xyz that we currently observe using certain instruments like microscopes? What if these xyz can one day be accounted for without appealing to subatomic particles?
When Einstein’s theory predicts the mass of the universe to be x, yet we found that visible mass is 96.4% short of this mass, must we conjure up new entities like dark energy and dark matter to explain this “missing, invisible mass”, rather than just conclude Einstein was falsified and so, wrong? What if there is another theory which does away with “facts and objects” like dark energy and dark matter altogether, and all other theoretical entities too that makes sense only within relativity theory – such as black holes?
Particle physics tells us that an atom is >99% empty space, and since we are all made of atoms, we are 99% empty space. This makes sense within the model of particle physics, but makes absolutely no sense in (for example) biology and higher-order emergent properties. So are we largely empty space or not?
I can go at lengths defending this instrumentalism, but I’ll simply drop a name: Hawking. Being an instrumentalist (sort-of), his “model-dependent” realism is no realism at all: he says there is no way to know if the equations of physics correspond to reality because he does not know what reality is, and the best we can have is to see whether the equations predict certain empirical phenomena.
Now there may be other language-games out there which account for these phenomena in other ways – art is one expression that does it, as is poetry, perhaps even music, and stories too. But not just language-games; there may be other scientific theories too that describes the phenomena. Why must one presuppose that reality is fully describable by one empirical theory as opposed to many? String theory accounts for all observations that relativity and quantum theory predicts – the difference being that it makes no new empirical predictions (at least as of now).
The point? Our understanding of reality is simply a calculating device, something we model for instrumental purposes; and there is no way to tell whether our modelling is the true one (again, I’ll have to go at lengths explaining theory-ladeness, confirmation, the transcendental argument, underdetermination). And what must count depends on the language-game we play: if it is science currently understood, what counts is that it must explain observable phenomena, and predict new ones. But the goals of science may change, or you may play other games instead.
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Wouldn’t it be a better analogy if God is the coin and Jesus is heads and Holy Spirit is tails? Just trying to improve your apologetics.
I think Jesus as God is probably the weakest part of Christianity – it plays out like too many other ancient Gods mixing with humans and fathering demigods stories- not very convincing unless you believe them too.
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It’s precisely because the statements ‘ “Snow is white” corresponds to reality’ and ” ‘Snow is white’ is true” are equivalent — and because making any rigorous sense of “reality” is hopeless — that some sort of disquotational or redundancy theory of truth is the best, as opposed to a correspondence theory, which is unquestionably the worst, something we should have known since the failure of the project laid out in the Tractatus.
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Michael Fugate: You raise an interesting point. I too find the man-God aspect of Christianity — and thus, Jesus — the least compelling element of it, and it is the reason why the religion overwhelmingly failed with the existing Jewish population and could only really be effectively spread among the pagan populations. It is, in many ways, a substantial step back from monotheism.
We should not ignore the fact, however, that it is the overwhelmingly compelling thing about it for Protestant Christians, whose Jesusism is often so intense that God barely gets any mention.
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Lot’s of use get on fine w/o God. There are plenty o atheist in ‘fox holes’ (like bypass surgery).
Even if ‘gods’ are an instinct (which I doubt) that does make them exist..
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Well, given that Qumran, in 1 Enoch, talks about Enoch’s “translation” in detail, and the Talmud talks about Metatron, and that the variety of “Judahisms” or “late pre-rabbinic Israelitism” or whatever one prefers were more diverse than most people think, and we don’t have exact numbers on Judahite/Gentile percentage of Christians, say, circa, 200 CE, I don’t think that it necessarily “overwhelmingly failed” with the existing Judahite population. (Given that Rabbinic Judaism didn’t start until after the destruction of the Second Temple and didn’t really start until the completion of the Mishna, I’m using terms like the above deliberately. (And, no, they’re not of my invention.) From a Jewish point of view, Jacob Neusner is a good authority on this transitional era.
And — with additional light from the war in Iraq — the religion of the Mandeans — with John the Baptizer as their chief figure, but not necessarily viewed as divine — a Jewish-Gnostic religion, also reflects on the religious diversity of late Second Temple times.
I find it interesting, even esoteric — but not necessarily totally out of the blue.
Another parallel might be the near-divine, and certainly intercessory stance, that Shi’ites in Islam accord some of their saints, which leads some Sunnis to accuse them of idolatry, etc.
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Hi Haulianlal,
While your comment is very interesting and erudite and informed, these ideas are not as you seem to expect wholly new to me, nor do I think they really address the point Coel and I are making.
You seem to think of a scientific approximation in different terms than Coel and I. For you, it seems that a theory X cannot be an approximation of a theory Y if it posits different entities. But for Coel and I, all that is required for theory X to be an approximation of theory Y is that it yields similar predictions.
For instance, it is often said that Newtonian physics is an approximation of Einsteinian physics, and Coel and I would agree with that. But if I understand your position rightly, then it cannot be an approximation of Einsteinian physics, because Newtonian physics posits a force of gravity and Einsteinain physics does not, positing instead a spacetime that can be curved and warped.
But the entities in a superceded theory will tend to correspond (perhaps loosely) to entities in a superceding theory, especially if the former theory remains a very good model of experimental observations. The force of gravity corresponds to the warping of spacetime, for instance. We might as you suggest do away with electrons, but electrons will still correspond to something in the new theory, whether that be excitations in a field (QFT) or vibrations of a string (String theory) or whatever.
Dark energy is another thing entirely so let’s stick to dark matter.
We already know Einstein cannot be 100% right because of the incompatibility of GR with QM. As such, it would be great if we could just throw out GR and come up with a new theory which would accomodate these observations (and ideally reconcile large scale physics with the quantum world). Efforts have certainly been made in these directions, (e.g. MOND or Modified Newtonian Dynamics), but so far nothing seems to work as well as keeping GR much as it is but positing stuff which we cannot detect by other means, i.e. dark matter. That doesn’t mean that the correct final theory is GR plus dark matter. We know it is not. What we do not know yet is whether the final theory will have something that corresponds very closely to dark matter — we simply don’t know enought about dark matter yet. The best bets are that something corresponding to dark matter exists, but it could be that an approach such as MOND wins out in the end.
OK, suppose we have lots of theories. Newtonian physics is a perfectly acceptable and useful theory at ordinary human scales. GR is more useful for more extreme situations involving high energies or very large scales. QM is good for very small scales. But I’m saying these theories are not how the universe actually precisely behaves. It is perhaps a contentious view in these circles, but I will for now take it for granted that there is such a way that the universe actually precisely behaves, and that it is in principle possible to capture this in a theory. This theory has to be coherent, which means that it cannot have contradictions in it. By suggesting that we can have many empirical theories rather than one, you seem to be saying that maybe the way the universe behaves can be captured by simply cobbling together a number of different theories for different situations. If we can do so without any contradiction, well and good, but then that cobbled together set of theories just is the single theory that describes the actual behaviour of the universe.
However, if we cobble together QM and GR, then we will have an inconsistent theory, as these theories do not agree when they both apply at the same time, e.g. at very small scales and very high energies. We can’t reproduce these conditions in the lab but they do seem to be found in nature, e.g. in Black Holes (or what we naively think of as Black Holes for now) or at the Big Bang (or what we naively think of as the Big Bang for now).
I’m aware that some of what I am suggesting is philosophically contentious. I do for example assume that there is a real world out there independent of human thought, and I do assume a correspondence theory of truth (more or less). Dan has disputed these views, and that’s all fine. Dan and you are welcome to do that, and I might at another time like to get into that. But I think it’s going too far to say that the contentious ideas I am relying on have been completely overturned by the philsophical community. There are yet well-regarded phlosophers who hold to them, so you can perhaps imagine that I might defend these ideas as those philosophers would.
All I’m trying to do is answer your question — how can we claim that QM and GR are approximations to a final theory if we don’t know what that theory is? I think I have answered that question. It could be that this answer depends on philosophy with which you disagree, but getting into that is perhaps going too far off thread.
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Socratic: Your carving up of the time-period is far too rigid. Rabbinical Judaism really goes back to the Pharisees. There is no hard line between the way they thought of the religion and the later Rabbinical authorities. Those who followed Christian and similar sects were a fringe population in Judaism and not in any way mainstream, so Christianity did rely essentially on the conversion of gentiles, due to its failure with the Jewish population. As for Neusner, while a certifiable genius, much of his views are considered quite eccentric within the scholarly community. I studied under Peter Machinist of Harvard (then, at Michigan) and by his telling, the number of Jews who found Christianity compelling was marginal.
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“Can God make a rock bigger than he can lift?” — a favorite question in Catechism.
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DM: Who said they have been completely overturned by the philosophical community? Probably most philosophers are some variety of correspondence theorist, just as most philosophers are likely either Utilitarians or deontologists. Nonetheless they are wrong, for the reasons I mentioned. The Tractatus was the best effort at correspondence you are ever going to get and it was a failure, even according to its own author. And no one has been able to give a rigorous account of “reality” that doesn’t either fall into some generic stuff, a la Kantian noumena, or something that clearly already involves substantial conceptualization, neither of which is tenable. The redundancy/disquotational theories of truth nicely reflect these developments, which is why I embrace them.
I understand that for some people, banging away endlessly at something, because you really think it has to be true is a fruitful exercise, but I don’t. I also understand that for some people the notion that “there must be an answer, it’s just around the next corner!” makes sense, but I don’t. Which is why I’ve heard more than enough on these subjects and am read to move on to the next, rather than spin my wheels endlessly, as philosophy seems to want to do of late. And don’t think it’s because all these people are such deep, profound thinkers. It’s largely to do with professional reasons and the manic imperative to publish! publish! at all costs which has pretty much ruined the humanities.
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The theory we’ve understood becuase it relatively simple and thus pretty. It could be the the next step is hard for us. Let’s hope not. Newton to GR and QM took, what 300 years or so, we shouldn’t lose patients too soon as we’ve already done the ‘easy’ stuff.
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Haulianlal Guite wrote:
You throw in an entire philosophy of science in this realistic line, how am I to respond in 3 paras?!
= = =
Get used to that. It’s pretty much how every conversation here goes, eventually.
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Socratic: Of course, your larger — and much more interesting — point that in the Second Temple period, there were many “Judaisms” and it was hardly pre-ordained which would survive, is obviously correct.
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I’ll disagree on several of the points. First, setting aside the divinity question, the teachings of Jesus as recorded in the Synoptic Gospels are pretty … Pharisean. That’s commonly accepted by both Jewish and Christian scholars of the era. Based on that, I’ll disagree with Machinist.
Also, given that the number of sects in that period was far beyond Josephus’ “four ways” (and I haven’t even mentioned Gnosticism and its likely pre-Christian Jewish connections), the idea of “fringe populations” and which populations were “fringe” is … problematic?
As for datings, I’ll allow for the period of 70-200 CE to be “transitional,” but wouldn’t consider “Judaism” to be in place until the start of the Amoraic era, the writing of the Mishnah, etc. Which is, of course, circa 200 CE.
Neusner? Some of his views are arguably somewhat eccentric. I wouldn’t say “many” and “quite,” though.
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Hi Dan,
Sorry, I was wrong to imply you had said that.
But, when my purpose is just to answer the question “How can you think X?”, then the fact that my answer depends on a philosophical view which has not been completely overturned cannot be much of an objection unless your purpose is to get into a debate on that.
I have answered the question, and if the answer is “We can think X because of wrong philosophy,”, then so be it.
I will just note that of course I don’t agree that it is wrong, as I don’t find the arguments against it terribly compelling, but as you note yourself, it is pointless to get into the details of that if we don’t actually want to turn this into a debate on the philosophy of truth.
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The most eccentric of Neusner’s ideas, I will say, is stuff that starts to cross-pollinate with the likes of Eisenman, et al, on the semi-DaVinci Code idea of an earthly, renewed Davidic dynasty in Jesus and family. (I find this …. well, to be almost as laughable as mythicism.)
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Socratic: Your prior post — “I’ll disagree with … ” — is certainly fair enough. I can see the argument that there was no Judaism, pre-Amoraim, though I probably wouldn’t accept it. (Whether for entirely rationally defensible reasons is another matter.)
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Trinitarianism I put is the ‘not even false’ category, so of course it can’t be disproved scientifically or any other way
As I was taught it the trinityis is a mystery which no human can understand, but we are required to believe ib ‘faith’?
How you can believe (much less disprove) something you don’t understand is beyond me.
Here are some words. They mean something. I don’t know what they mean, but whatever it is, is true.
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Of course Coel’s physics talk can be wrong! That’s the point, right?
Even strings can be wrong though proving it might be difficult.
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Cousin! Now that you’re involved, what do you think about Rovelli’s new book in particular — if you’re familiar with it — and LQG in general? (Feel free to be brief.)
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DM: I would gently suggest that you are not sufficiently versed in the relevant arguments to really know whether they are compelling or not or even to have an educated opinion on it. (Fonzie is even less so.) For that to be the case, you’d need to have read and studied an awful lot of material which I am quite sure you have not.
I understand that people here feel very free to opine widely, even on things they are not particularly well educated in, but I am not one of them. That’s the reason why I say virtually nothing on the science threads. I don’t know enough about the subjects at hand to speak intelligently or productively about them. It is also the reason why, for example, in a discussion like the one that Socratic and I are having, the fact that while I am educated, it is only up to a point, makes me both hesitant and careful with respect to what I assert and how strongly I assert it. Which is why I didn’t press the issue further with him.
There is no shame in not knowing things. That describes everyone. But acting like one does is a different matter, especially when one is in conversation with people who do. And for the umpteenth time, just as I wouldn’t go over on Fonzie’s blog and embarrass myself spouting a lot of nonsense about astrophysics, which I know nothing about, it might be nice if others exercised a similar sort of self-restraint. Who knows, one might actually learn something from others!
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Whyt people regard havng ‘faith’ (any faith) is viewed as a virtue I don’t get. I guess it’s better than another 100 years war, though some seem miss thpse good-old-days and want to start another one with Islam.
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And yet another side note re the diversity of thought in the late Second Temple era — don’t forget that the great Indian ruler Ashoka sent Buddhist missionaries as far west as Cyrene and Macedon circal 250 BCE. No telling what little dribblets of metaphysical thought they left in late Ptolmaic-era Israel. Or in Alexandrian Egypt, for that matter.
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socratic: What all this points to, of course, is just how difficult ancient History is, because of the dearth of sources and because what sources we have are not historical, in the modern sense. Which is why I think in many cases, the line between history and myth is not at all clear … and which is why I don’t scoff at myth.
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Hi Dan,
I agree that I don’t know a whole lot about this stuff, especially compared to you. I have read over some of these arguments on a cursory level but no more than that.
But, until I find time to get deeply into it and do that in-depth study (which is realistically never going to happen), and if I need some sort of operating notion of truth (as I think I do) I think it’s reasonable to stick with the idea that seems most reasonable to me, especially since this view has not been rejected by the philosophical community wholesale. This is not climate change denial or intelligent design.
What I’m not going to do is just accept your word for it that the CToT is wrong simply because you happen to be the resident expert in these parts, with all due respect.
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At Santa Clara the Jesuit’s too relgiion seriously. They did encourage us to think or ourselves which in my case did not work out from their perspective.
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But Socratic, my grandmother – good Southern Baptist that she was – was convinced that Baptists descended directly from John the Baptist and never, ever were tainted by Papism. So was she really Jewish?
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John, Science does not claim or aim at absolute truth. For me Occam’s razor is a rule of thumb that helps one find a workable explanations. If some ‘entity’ or concept is not needed to explain some phenomena don’t use it.
The trinity is just silly and not a scientific question at all.
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Dan, at a minimum, myth (and legend, to separate the two, whether divinities are involved or not), may at least in many cases be a reframing of history. Such reframing happens even in post-literate, nay, even in post-printing times, as “America is a Christian nation” shows.
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