After having spent some posts examining Paul Feyerabend’s Philosophy of Nature, it’s time to tackle the second entry in Footnotes to Plato’s book club: Julian Baggini’s The Edge of Reason, A Rational Skeptic in an Irrational World. Julian is a founding editor of The Philosophers’ Magazine, and has written a number of acclaimed books in popular philosophy before. The Edge of Reason attempts to strike a, well, reasonable balance between fashionable postmodernist-inspired rejection of rationality (which, arguably, gave us the dreadful age of “post-truth”) and the older and equally unsupportable rationalist-positivist faith in reason’s essentially unlimited powers.
The book is divided into four sections: “My positive case for rationality requires taking us through four key myths of rationality, all of which can be traced back to Plato. These myths are: that reason is purely objective and requires no subjective judgement; that it can and should take the role of our chief guide, the charioteer of the soul; that it can furnish us with the fundamental reasons for action; and that we can build society on perfectly rational principles.”
I initially thought of devoting one post to each section, covering three chapters each for the first three sections, and two chapters for the fourth one. But it looks like I will actually have to write an essay per chapter, so this is going to take a whopping 11 posts. I hope you’ll bear with me (and Julian), it is worth it. While my commentary is meant as a series of stand alone essays, it would, of course, be helpful if the reader actually got the book and followed along. Who knows, hopefully Julian himself will drop by from time to time to add his thoughts to the ongoing discussion.
So let’s begin with chapter 1, entitled “The eternal God argument.” Julian opens the chapter echoing my own thoughts on participating to “debates” about the existence of God. Like him, I initially was enthusiastic about engaging theologians like William Lane Craig, but have become weary of the exercise. Though these events are presented to the public as intellectual contests, in reality they are more akin to sports events where few people change their mind, the audience simply cheers for one “team” or the other, and the outcome hinges more on self presentation, rhetoric and a good sense of humor than on actual philosophy.
Interestingly, Julian argues that the same atmosphere permeates the academic world of philosophy of religion, were very smart people argue over very fine points, with no inkling of ever changing their mind about their fundamental position, religious or atheist that it may be.
As he puts it, “when, for instance, an atheist comes across a clever new version of an argument for the existence of God which she cannot refute, she does not say ‘Ah! So now I must believe in God!’ Rather, she says, ‘That’s clever. There must be something wrong with it. Give me time and I’ll find out what that is.'” And the exact same approach characterizes clever theologians, like Richard Swinburne or Alvin Plantinga.
Julian suggests — and I wholly agree — that the reason for this situation has nothing to do with people’s hypocrisy or bad faith, but rather with the fact that people’s beliefs are largely impervious to minutiae and depend instead on the broad strokes characterizing a given issue. Take, as a completely different example, climate change. I “believe” in it, and I have no patience for “skeptics” who spend inordinate amounts of time trying to find small holes in the major argument. That’s not because I don’t care about other people’s opinions, or because one cannot, in fact, identify gaps in our understanding of the issue. It is because I have been convinced, long ago, by the big picture, the major reasons and pieces of evidence that point to the reality of global warming. For me to change my mind it would require the equivalent of an epistemic earthquake which, though possible, is extremely unlikely. And Julian’s point is that my attitude isn’t that of an entrenched and close minded bigot, but rather very, very reasonable. The problem is that the same can be said of people on the other side of the debate. They are also convinced by their understanding of the big picture, and no amount of detail put forth by me in the course of an argument is going to make a dent into their general view.
So, if you want to understand why people hold to certain opinions and worldviews you should apply the “end of the day” test: ask them what, at the end of the day, are the pillars on which their convictions stand. Ignore the details, go big.
Julian hastens to say that this is not a post-modernist position at all: “That is not to say there can be no rational argument at all between people for whom what seems obvious is very different. I would argue for the superior obviousness of belief that religion is a human construct. This obviousness does not rely on subjective feeling alone, but on the mass of evidence which is available to all.” The problem is that “to the naturalist it seems obvious which type of obviousness carries most weight. … But as we shall shortly see, this is not at all obvious to everyone.”
Julian is critical of what he sees as the academic pretense that the fine details of arguments put forth by professional philosophers actually matter. They don’t, and an honest academic — regardless of whether he is a theist or an atheist — would admit that. But admitting it would also undermine the very meaning of these people’s life work, an obviously psychologically unpalatable thing to do. Baggini comments: “After all, the more nuanced the argument, the more scope for sophistry.” Indeed.
The next important, and oft-neglected, point is that both believers and non-believers are committed to the use of reason. Very few people go around priding themselves on being irrational. But this doesn’t provide a lot of common ground, because the two sides begin their reasoning with radically different, and mutually incompatible, assumptions and premises.
Take, for instance, Plantinga’s famous assertion that belief in God is “properly basic,” meaning that it is a perfectly legitimate starting point for constructing one’s own worldview.
“Plantinga’s argument is that everyone has to accept that some beliefs are basic in order to believe anything at all. However, not just any belief can be considered basic, or there would be no way of distinguishing sense from nonsense. I cannot just assert, for example, that I take the existence of Santa Claus to be basic. So which beliefs can be accepted as properly basic?”
That question is much harder to address, and one’s preferred answer much harder to defend and justify, than it may appear at first glance. Still, once we accept that people do assume a certain number of “properly” basic beliefs (whether they do or don’t seem “proper” to us) it becomes immediately obvious why it is the broad picture, not the fine details, that matter. As Julian says, “where the conflict really lies is right down at the very bases of why people believe what they do, yet the war is fought over the beliefs that flow from them.”
Baggini points out that this idea of properly basic belief is known in epistemology as foundationalism, and it is deeply problematic. He explains the problem by way of an analogy with heath studies. Suppose you have always believed, on the basis of what you read, that drinking a glass of wine a day is actually good for your blood circulation. Now a new study appears to contradict that finding, and you have to evaluate what to do: do you throw away your previously held belief and accept the logical consequences of the new study? Or do you ignore the new findings because they go against the bedrock you have used to guide your behavior so far? But if so, on what grounds?
The answer isn’t simple. It is possible that the new study is so much better, based on a far wider number of subjects and more rigorous protocols, that the rational thing to do would indeed be to overturn your previous belief about health and drinking wine. But it is also reasonable to suspend judgment over the most recent findings precisely because they appear to contradict a well established notion. Perhaps the best approach is to open your mind to some skepticism about the health benefits of wine drinking, and yet await confirmation (or not!) of the new study before actually changing your behavior. That is, our positions ought to be examined within the broader context of our assumptions and of many other positions we hold, what Quine called the “web” of our belief. While some thread of the web appear more secure, and it is therefore rational not to question them on the basis of the latest news, at some point additional discoveries may become weighty enough to justify the replacement and removal of even the thickest threads of our epistemological web.
The point is that “to understand why arguments rarely lead people to change their minds in many intellectual disputes we have to understand the holistic nature of reasoning. We believe what we do because of a number of overlapping and mutually reinforcing reasons and arguments, rarely because one settles the issue either way.”
While Julian considers himself a “coherentist,” as opposed to a foundationalist, he also agrees that some beliefs within the overall web are, in a sense, more fundamental, i.e., much harder to replace, than others. He cites Bertrand Russell on this: “[C]oherence presupposes the truth of the laws of logic. Two propositions are coherent when both may be true and are incoherent when one at least must be false. Now in order to know whether two propositions can both be true, we must know such truths as the law of contradiction. But if the law of contradiction itself were subjected to the test of coherence, we should find that, if we choose to suppose it false, nothing will any longer be incoherent with anything else. Thus the laws of logic supply the skeleton or framework within which the test of coherence applies, and they themselves cannot be established by this test.”
The difference, then, between foundationalism and coherentism isn’t that only foundationalists accept the notion of properly basic beliefs, but rather than they cannot ever question such beliefs, on penalty of the whole edifice collapsing, while coherentists can, from time to time, and when the evidence is overwhelming, go back and contemplate the refinement, or even replacement, of one of their formerly secure beliefs.
Baggini has a nice way to put it: “The principle of non-contradiction, for example, is not upheld because we can know it to be self-evidently true in isolation, but because we can see that without it, no web of belief can hold together. [Such beliefs] are indispensable rather than indisputable.”
The last section of the chapter deals with yet another reason why people may engage in honest debate about fundamental disagreements and never concede their opponents’ point: much public discourse is framed as an exercise in apologetics, not as an open, Socratic, inquiry. Apologetics is in the business of finding rational arguments to defend a position held a priori, while Socratic inquiry, at its best (and regardless of whether Socrates himself actually practiced it) is about exploring the issues with a truly open mind.
One example of apologetics is the defense of the Christian concept of the Trinity, which is “a somewhat paradoxical doctrine, since it asserts that each of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit is God, but the Father is neither the Son nor the Holy Spirit, the Son is neither the Father nor the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is neither the Father nor the Son.” Baggini continues: “This would appear to defy the most basic principles of logic. According to standard logic, if (A = B) and (B = C) then (A = C). So, for example, if Bill Clinton is the 42nd President of the United States of America and the 42nd President of the United States of America is the father of Chelsea Clinton, then Bill Clinton must be the father of Chelsea. The doctrine of the Trinity defies this apparently inexorable logic. The Father is God and God is the Son but the Father is not the Son. The work of apologetics is therefore to show how this circle can be squared.” And there is a lot of this work to be found in the literature, even though my own web of beliefs very clearly rejects it as nonsense on stilts (but carried out by very, very clever people).
Or take the famous problem of evil insofar the existence of an all-knowing, all-powerful, God who is present everywhere. Plenty of philosophers and atheists have pointed out that this is a serious, even fatal problem for the Judeo-Christian-Islamic conception of God, particularly when talking about “natural” as opposed to human evil (since the latter, but not the former, can be accounted for by way of the free will defense). The theologian’s response boils down to the fact that this is indeed a mystery, which is something that positively enrages the atheist.
But as Baggini points out, there is nothing at all scandalous in admitting that one’s worldview has holes. Science itself has plenty of holes, some of which are gaping (for instance in current debates in fundamental physics). And yet scientists think — reasonably — that they have plenty of excellent reasons to still hold to the near-truth of quantum mechanics and general relativity, even while being conscious of the fact that the two theories are incompatible. Christians adopt a similar position, insofar as their own conception of the world is concerned.
The chapter concludes with this gem: “the fact that we know reason will not convince everyone is beside the point. Whether an argument is sound or whether it is persuasive are two different questions. It should come as no surprise that good rational arguments often fail to persuade people. The case for reason is not that it is always psychologically efficacious but that it genuinely helps us towards the truth. However, just as you can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it drink, so you can lead a mind to reason but you cannot make it think.” Indeed.

Michael,
“I think Jesus as God is probably the weakest part of Christianity – it plays out like too many other ancient Gods mixing with humans and fathering demigods stories- not very convincing unless you believe them too.”
What if, to the ancients, these demigods were the popularization of Plato’s shadows on the cave wall? A way to conceptualize deeper concepts. Sort of like we think of the quantum world as composed of particles, because singular objects are the most reductionistically concise concepts we have, even though it leaves space99+ % empty, as Haulianlal points out? Could the intellect have evolved to this point, without that stage?
Dan,
“It is, in many ways, a substantial step back from monotheism.”
To refer back to my quote of Wittgenstein, isn’t there a state where our abstractions have become so sterilized of the world from which they are extracted, that they start to loose meaning and effectiveness?
“He describes this metaphysical environment as like being on frictionless ice: where the conditions are apparently perfect for a philosophically and logically perfect language, all philosophical problems can be solved without the muddying effects of everyday contexts; but where, precisely because of the lack of friction, language can in fact do no work at all.”
A God that is everything is also a God that is nothing.
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That’s another reason to avoid the minutiae. You end up basing your knock down refutation on the claim that there must be something to which logic does not apply and then trying to apply logic to it.
As though logic was supposed to be some physical or metaphysical principle, which it isn’t.
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All analogies are heresy.
See, e.g., The Power and the Glory, by Graham Green or the struggles of a faithful priest.
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I have wondered if those who think Jesus is my best friend’ realize that they are not HIS best friend!
”’
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DM wrote:
What I’m not going to do is just accept your word for it
= = =
You definitely should never do that.
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DM wrote:
But, until I find time to get deeply into it and do that in-depth study (which is realistically never going to happen), and if I need some sort of operating notion of truth (as I think I do) I think it’s reasonable to stick with the idea that seems most reasonable to me, especially since this view has not been rejected by the philosophical community wholesale. This is not climate change denial or intelligent design.
= = =
And again, this brings us back to the in my view quite interesting — and convenient — view that of all the subjects, philosophy is the only one that requires no expertise to speak intelligently and usefully about. So, don’t know anything about climate science? Better listen to the experts! Haven’t read a single one of the crucial papers on the correspondence theory of truth? Never mind. I have a pre-theoretic intuition. And there are experts who agree with me anyway.
Funny that. And funny that it is always science/math types saying that about other peoples’ disciplines and never their own. Hmm…
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The real reason you can’t do a logically impossible thing is not because of some metaphysical law forbidding it but rather, as Thomas Aquinas pointed out, because a contradictory description doesn’t refer to anything.
It like saying that an omnipotent being ought to be able to determine the momentum of the square root of two.
Or, as CS Lewis puts it “a nonsensical phrase does not gain meaning by prepending the words ‘God can’ “
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I haven’t read it or even seen it. I’ve only been skimming as I’m pre-occupied with other matters.
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DM: Of course, you can “stick with what seems reasonable to me” if you like, just don’t expect anyone to be interested in it and especially not people who actually know something about the subject. It’s one thing to have a conversation with your buddies in a dorm room about something you barely know anything about, but you involved in discussions here with at least two professional philosophers and sometimes more.
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Wow, lots to catch up on!
Hi Massimo,
Surely every theory in science involves Occam’s razor, since all scientific theories are stripped down to what’s needed and don’t have extraneous add-ons.
Hi Socratic,
That’s more supersymmetry than string-theory per se. But I’m not sure what your wider points is, it is fully accepted that models such as supersymmetry are speculative and unproven.
Hi Dan,
You are welcome to list all the things you’ve changed your mind on as a result of what I’ve argued. 🙂 But, also, you would stand a better chance of changing my mind on things if you argued more for your opinions rather than just declaring them with a pointer to Wittgenstein. Up to you of course.
Well I have not opined on numerous occasions, though the resulting absence of comments might not be that apparent. I do tend to comment only when I have a strong opinion on something, that’s just me. I’ve changed my mind loads on things that I don’t tend to comment on.
Hi DM,
Yes, true. Your “dancing with pixies” argument that there is no “fact of the matter” as to what is or is not a computation has pretty much torpedoed computationalism as I see it, since — while I don’t really claim to understand consciousness — I’m fairly sure that there is a fact of the matter as to whether something is conscious.
Hi Haulianlal,
I see that DM has weighed in, but:
I accept them as approximately true, not as fully true. They are approximately true in the sense of being good models of reality (specifically GR is a good model of large-scale behaviour and QM a good model of small-scale behaviour). And since I’m using correspondence to the real world as my definition of truth, that alone suffices to make them “approximately true”. That still allows them to be incompatible in places.
I know quite a lot about empirical reality, and “truth” is simply a correspondence to that, so that’s how I know that they are “approximately true”.
It’s not me who is postulating a god or making demands as to his nature, I’m just trying to poke holes in theology.
The problem still holds, since he could just make us non corporeal.
I go for minimising the information content of the model.
Atheism is not a positive claim, it’s an absence of belief. It is a-{theism} not {a-the}-ism. Thus superflous gods get excised from the model, which is atheism.
We do if we’re attempting to explain our experiences, which we are.
But that latter is the person called Coel!
Sure, it’s a possibility. Just don’t claim to know anything about it without presenting evidence! 🙂
Well, as I’ve pointed out before, “naturalism” is pretty much undefined since “supernatural” is pretty much undefined. Which is why science assumes neither of those.
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Haulianlal, you seem to mistake verbiage for salad rather than sensibility.
“Not here to defend Catholicism per se as such . . .” That’s good since I don’t recall encumbering you with this task.
“I know this will nowhere satisfy, but the point is that it is a Quinean web of belief you have here . . .” What Quinean web of belief would be mine? Would I be correct in assuming that you haven’t read Baginin’s first chapter?
“So to individually question why there are 3 persons in the Godhead instead of 12734 persons make no sense within this Quinean interpretation.” Which one? Quine seems all about webs of belief being underdetermined and metaphysically relative. So what part of my initial comment on this thread regarding the nature of the trinity is controversial? From a Hindu’s “Quinean interpretation” the Church’s dogma on the Trinity just opens the doors to pantheism.
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Hi Dan,
Along with most of the humanities. Because the humanities are quite unlike science and mathematics. The nature of expertise in the respective disciplines is quite different, I think.
I don’t think expertise in philosophy (and to some extent the other humanities) has any significant correlation with having correct opinions, and this is simply because there are a wide diversity of opinions within these fields. If being an expert in philosophy were correlated to being correct, then we would expect to see consensus emerge.
Expertise in philosophy is instead about knowing who said what, when, and what they meant, and what the various positions on a certain issue are, and what the various objections and counter-arguments are to those positions. I defer to you on all of that stuff.
What I cannot defer to you on is which positions I ought to adopt. You can serve as a guide to the various options but not as an authority on which philisophical positions are correct.
Perhaps your irritation would be justified if I were offering myself as an expert, but I am not. I am just trying to explain the view I have come to adopt over the years and how it is that I can hold the views I hold.
Anyone with a passing interest in philosophical issues cannot help but try to build a coherent world view. Not all of us are employed by philosophy departments, unfortunately, so not all of us can afford to invest as much time and thought in it as you have. But I cannot simply suspend judgement on these issues. I need an operating theory of truth, of epistemology, and of morality in order to build my world view. Nobody should take me to be an authority on this stuff and I don’t hold myself up to be one. My arguments should be judged on their merits.
Science and mathematics are quite different. There, it is quite appropriate to defer to the experts with regard to what is likely to be correct. That is, apart form where there is no consensus. For instance, I think it is quite appropriate for a non-expert to question whether dark matter really exists (somewhat less so to be convinced one way or another). It is quite reasonable for someone with a rough layman’s understanding of quantum mechanics to prefer one interpretation over another.
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Thomas: Quinean webs are ultimately rooted in observation statements and thus, are not entirely relative. That’s why his is not really a coherence theory of justification. Those theories that really are have a serious problem with the relationship between justification — warrant — and truth.
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The better way IMHO is the broad brush approach is to point out that Naturalism generally fits the data better because you don’t need apologetics to explain the suffering, its just exactly what you would expect, and therefore, unless there are other reasons to prefer Theism, Naturalism is the most likely explanation.
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DM: Lol. If you weren’t so earnest, your reply would be drop dead hilarious, given the post it was a reply to. Talk about walking right into it.
“Science and mathematics are different!” Of course they are. Because that’s what you have knowledge about.
You certainly are more amusing than Fonzie, I can give you that.
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Hi Haulianlal,
No of course you don’t! What you do is compare the two alternative: either, the mass of the universe is 4% of the critical density, or the mass adds up to the critical density and a lot of that is in the form of dark matter and dark energy. Then you develop both models, testing them for explanatory and predictive power, and see which holds up better over time. I can give you a long list of reasons why the latter is now preferred, after cosmologists have spent the last few decades investigating the two alternatives (and lots of other alternatives for that matter).
Then what you do is compare the two alternatives for explanatory and predictive power and consistency with the rest of physics. In other words you proceed with science’s methods.
It makes sense for both! The difference just comes from considering different scales.
I largely agree.
Just define “true” as corresponding to observable reality … et voila … the instrumental accounts are “true”! Simples!
Now, yes, there may also be meta-realities behind that. No-one disputes that (and if you think you can say anything about those meta-realities please present your evidence about them).
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What I find somewhat … notable … about Dan’s position is that he asserts that the correspondence theory of truth is untenable at the same time as stating that most professional philosophers likely disagree with him, and also that philosophy has no way of telling which of these positions is actually right! (Not to mention that he doesn’t actually say what’s wrong with it, other than pointing at Wittgenstein.)
On expertise:
We know that car mechanics have expertise because they can make cars go. Ditto plumbers, ditto aircraft engineers, computer tech guys, etc. We know that doctors have expertise because they can cure sick people. We know that physicists have expertise because technology based on physics works, because they can predict solar eclipses and can predict the gravitational-wave signature of black holes colliding half-way across the observable universe, and then verify the prediction. Et cetera.
We know that philosophers have expertise because …?
Well, in one way they certainly do. They know a lot about what each other has written. That is theologians’ expertise. Theologians have a huge amount of expertise about what other theologians have written about theology, but they have close to zero expertise on the subject matter itself — namely gods. On that they have no more expertise than scientists or car mechanics. Really, they don’t.
But I, for one, am not primarily interested in knowing-about-what-others-have-written expertise, I’m primarily interested in getting-it-right expertise. That’s the sort of expertise that car mechanics and doctors and physicists have.
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Hi Dan,
I’m no more an expert in science and mathematics than I am in philosophy. I’ve read more philosophy papers than physics papers.
The difference is not in my expertise. It is in the existence of consensus.
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Hey Fonzie, do some reading on theories of truth and maybe we can have a real conversation about the subject. Tarski; Field on Tarski; Field on Deflationism; Horwich; etc.
Until then, just carry on. You’re doing great on your own. It’ll carry great weight … with someone.
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The problem with the Church’s dogma on the Trinity is 2000 years of sophistry(philosophy doesn’t have a monopoly).
When I was young, I made the very simplistic assumption it was a way to distinguish the new from the old, as in the Jewish God was the old ways of doing things, i.e. social model and we the Christians, are more modern!
Then when things didn’t pan out for the first few hundred years, the Holy Ghost was incorporated as a way to look to the future.
Then reading Murray on the subject, it was apparently something similar, the ancient cycle of the seasons as the spirit dying and being reborn. Gosh! Who would have guessed!
Now the church, being an eternal institution, naturally DOES NOT LIKE the idea of recycling and starting new, for very evident reasons. So they set religious scholars, like a pack of hounds, onto ways to obscure the fact the Trinity arises from a pagan tradition of renewal. So we get God as the spirit, the flesh, the soul, whatever and whomever disagrees, gets their knuckles wrapped, or worse.
Of course, the Church gets Luther.
Reality is so inconvenient, but not always as complicated as we make it.
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Dan,
What I’m doing is defending views that are pretty widespread in science — certainly on correspondence truth — and science generally does indeed carry a lot of weight in society at large.
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As much as I enjoy the creativity, I’d rather commenters here NOT refer to each with derogative nicknames. I don’t think it helps discourse.
And I once again remind everyone that they are not obliged to interact with people with whom they don’t think there can possibly be a productive dialogue — whether they come from sitcoms about the ’50s or not. Thanks!
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Massimo: Aw, you’re no fun at all.
You really do focus on form rather than substance, but obviously I will accede to your wishes.
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Lest anyone be misled, science does not presuppose any particular philosophical conception of truth.
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“science does not presuppose any particular philosophical conception of truth.”
Bottom up, not top down.
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There’s a book that I went looking for, during my seminary years, both there and at Washington University, IIRC, by Stith-Thompson, an encyclopedia of folklore, myth and legend. He co-developed this classification system: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aarne%E2%80%93Thompson_classification_systems
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Dan,
Well you’re right there, science does not presume any philosophical conception of truth, it just uses the dictionary one, like everyone else (Oxford English Dictionary: “true” = “In accordance with fact or reality”).
[One of the things that baffles me about this issue is how one can have a “theory” about truth, as oppose to just defining the concept. I may well be missing something.]
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Coel,
“[One of the things that baffles me about this issue is how one can have a “theory” about truth, as oppose to just defining the concept. I may well be missing something.]”
Lol.
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I am wondering why I didn’t name my child Stith?
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Dan, thanks for the comment. I know you are trying to be helpful. But to repeat:
So what part of my initial comment on this thread regarding the nature of the trinity (as explicated by John Ottens early in this thread) is controversial? From a Hindu’s “Quinean interpretation” [sarcastic emphasis intended] the Church’s dogma on the Trinity just opens the doors to pantheism.
I tried to personalize my response early in my thread, drawing on my adolescent experiences, and get treated to a self-indulgent and pedantic lecture from Haulianlal that suggests I first study the entire body of Catholic ecclesiastical thought before questioning the central tenet of The Apostle Creed?
Poppycock.
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