The problem with “Indigenous science”

The logo of the Worldwide Indigenous Science Network

Last month I was invited by Frances Widdowson, a faculty in the Department of Economics, Justice and Policy Studies at Mt. Royal University, in Calgary, to participate to a panel discussion on the topic of the “indigenization” of the university curriculum. It was a weird experience, to say the least. [Warning: if you think that as a White Male European I am automatically disqualified from offering reasoned opinions on matters pertaining the history of exploitation of Indigenous people by Western nations, you may want to stop reading and take a walk. I’m trying to save you a possible ulcer.]

Canada is in the midst of a process of reconciliation with its Indigenous people, who have been exploited in ways similar to those experienced by their counterparts in what is currently the United States, in Central America, and in South America. The details vary from place to place, and so do the modalities of the exploitation, but the problem is common to the entire continent.

In the specific case of Canada, an overview of the process is presented at the web site of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, which “aims to reveal the truth about the history and the ongoing legacy of Canada’s residential schools [a system of boarding school aimed at integrating Indigenous kids into Western society, administered by Christian churches], and to guide a healing process of reconciliation among Canadians based on inclusion, mutual understanding, and respect.”

This post offers my thoughts as a layperson on Canada’s reconciliation process, and my opinions as a professional scientist-philosopher on the specific issue of indigenizing the science curriculum.

Before attending the panel I gave my customary talk on the difference between science and pseudoscience — the area of expertise that induced Frances to invite me in the first place. I also attended a talk by one of the panel members, David Newhouse, an Onondaga from the Six Nations of the Grand River community near Brantford, Ontario, and Chair and Professor in the Department of Indigenous Studies, Trent University.

The talk was on the broader process of reconciliation, and I will give you the highlights because they set the tone for what happened during the focal event, the panel discussion itself.

I learned a lot from David’s presentation. He talks calmly and deliberately, but his passion shines through nonetheless.

His first slide opened with the phrase “Before all other words are said we extend greetings to all of creation.” Which was a slight turn off to an atheist such as myself, but I didn’t mind, it was his talk after all. (Another participant to the panel, Root Gorelick, had, however, asked Frances to use “indigenous protocols,” and recommended that we “start with a local Elder smudging and welcoming everyone.” In response, Frances had argued that to participate in a ceremony with which one did not agree was not respectful, it was condescending.)

David explained that reconciliation is meant to correct what he called the “founding error,” the fact that no Indigenous people were present when the founding documents of Canada were drawn up.

He reminded us that the “long assault” on Indigenous people went on from 1857, with the passing of the Act to Encourage the Gradual Civilization of the Indian Tribes, to 1971, with the Withdrawal Statement of the Government of Canada on Indian policy, adding that the major tool of the long assault was the above mentioned network of residential schools. As a proponent of that approach once explained: “When one Indian boy or girl leaves this school with an education, the ‘Indian problem’ will forever be solved for him and his children.”

That sort of thing makes me cringe. It is abundantly clear to me, both from what I heard from David and from a bit of research on the topic done on my own, that the Canadian government’s approach had been a major blunder (even though it was probably well intentioned, from the point of view of the colonizers), and more broadly that a process of reconciliation is a very good way to go. That said, David used the highly emotional words “cultural genocide,” which made me a bit uncomfortable, both because of their obvious appeal to emotion, and because I tend to resist the metaphorical use of the word genocide, so not to diminish its impact when used in its original meaning of a deliberate, mass slaughtering of a particular people. (The term has been used by Chief Justice Beverly McLachlin.)

From then on, however, a few flags began to go off in my head as David continued his talk. For instance, David’s request for Indian control of Indian education, including the establishment of school boards, as well as the suggestion that Indians should be considered “citizens plus” with special rights, because they were charter members of Canada.

The problem with these sort of requests (other than that they will simply not be fulfilled, realistically) is that they fly straight into the face of Canada’s attempt to be a true multi-cultural society, welcoming people of all backgrounds and faiths. (Unlike, at the moment, its neighbor to the south.)

Cosmopolitanism is simply incompatible with special rights and exclusive education. And while it is perfectly understandable where such requests come from, in terms of historical wrongs, they would simply be wrongs of another type. It was a grievous mistake to attempt to eliminate Indigenous culture by forced assimilation into its Western counterpart. But it seems to me that respect for cultural traditions does not require a special status, something that in a sense embodies the opposite mistake of that represented by the residential schools. Indeed, it would be a disservice to Indigenous kids to isolate them culturally from the variety of traditions that characterize the rest of modern Canada, in the way a number of religious minorities in the United States wish to shelter their youth from the “corrupting” influence of other ways of thinking about the world.

Finally, David claimed that the process of reconciliation ought to be one for which there is no end point. This is odd, to say the least. The point of other truth and reconciliation commissions — in South Africa and Rwanda, for instance — has always been precisely to reach an end point, to acknowledge past wrongs, set up a proper system of reparations, and then shift to educational objectives to prevent future recurrences of the original problem. If people don’t accept an end point then resentment festers, perpetually undermining the goal of establishing a more harmonious society, constantly pitting people of different histories and cultures against each other, and generating further resentment on both sides.

And we finally come to the panel discussion itself. The point of contention was how to interpret article 62 of the recommendations issued by the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, which reads in part:

“We call upon the federal, provincial, and territorial governments, in consultation and collaboration with Survivors, Aboriginal peoples, and educators, to … Provide the necessary funding to post-secondary institutions to educate teachers on how to integrate Indigenous knowledge and teaching methods into classrooms. [and to] provide the necessary funding to Aboriginal schools to utilize Indigenous knowledge and teaching methods in classrooms.”

The keywords to pay attention to there are “Indigenous knowledge and teaching methods.”

The Commission goes on to explain: “Incorporating Indigenous knowledge in education is not only useful in building stronger intercultural relationships, and making the classroom more inviting to aboriginal students, it also provides alternative ways of teaching many concepts to children especially when it comes to topics related to the environment. Some schools that incorporated Indigenous learning into their curricula had lessons where students went on nature hikes, and learned how to grow traditional plants. Indigenizing education does not simply mean adding a chapter about residential schools to the textbook; it means including an Indigenous perspective in schools that would involve getting lessons from elders, taking nature walks to understand science, studying Indigenous language, and ultimately learning what it means to coexist in a just and peaceful way.”

Most of which I find entirely unobjectionable, as stated. The problem, apparently, is in how to interpret just how far this process should go.

The panel was made up of the organizer, Frances Widdowson; David Newhouse; Root Gorelick — who describes himself as a feminist anarchist evolutionary theorist, who primarily researches evolution of sex and diversity; Shawn England, who teaches Latin American and US history at Mount Royal; and yours truly. The whole thing was moderated by Gerry Cross, a Professor Emeritus of Mathematics and Computing at Mount Royal.

My notes on the individual presentations are not detailed enough to attempt a play-by-play report, but Frances told me that there is a good chance an edited volume or special journal issue will soon be in the works, including some contributions from scholars who couldn’t attend the panel, so stay tuned.

I will, however, comment on a few important points. Root, for instance, is a really nice guy with whom I had genial conversations over dinner and lunch. But he insisted that there are radically different ways of doing science — in support of the notion that there may be different ways to achieve knowledge, including Indigenous ones. For instance, he claims that unsystematic observations are perfectly valid scientific data. I responded that unsystematic observation may very well represent the beginning of a scientific investigation, but that “data” means one has some specific idea in mind, a theoretical framework to guide his investigations, and systematic sources — be they observational or experimental. Root also suggested — in a move eerily reminiscent of those of American creationists — that (Indigenous) kids should be exposed to both Western science and traditional “ways of knowing” so that they can decide what best fits their needs. To which I replied that no, education isn’t about subjecting students to all sorts of notions and let them decide. It is about sharpening their tools for better thinking and providing them with the best notions that human knowledge has arrived at so far. And yes, I’m perfectly aware that “best notions” and “better thinking” imply value judgments.

Shawn’s role was that of presenting a middle way between Root’s and David’s position on one side, and Frances’ and mine on the other. (If you want a taste of Frances’ take on this matter, check this article. In the interest of balance, here is one by Root.) In an attempt to strike a compromise, he claimed that indigenization can open new venues of inquiry, at which point I asked for specific examples, without getting much of a response (more on this point in a minute).

David attempted to pre-empt criticism along the lines that requiring the teaching of Indigenous “science” would run afoul of the principle of academic freedom by saying that “we don’t require other faculty to teach this.” In other words, the idea is to hire Indigenous faculty to teach Indigenous science. But, I replied, that’s simply dodging the bullet. Imagine for a minute someone wishing to teach homeopathy as if it were sound medicine and reassuringly telling the medical school that they are not required to do it, someone else will do it for them. That would be to spectacularly miss the point, I should think.

Since David too, like Shawn, insisted that indigenizing the university would be a plus because it would introduce both faculty and students to other ways of knowing, I asked again for specific examples. I finally got them.
Here are the only three that were presented during the entire panel discussion:

i) Indigenous people know the local flora and fauna well, including some of their medicinal properties (Indigenous biology).

ii) Chairs can change into bears, because energy is in movement and can change into matter (Indigenous “physics”).

iii) Going into a sauna and smudging some local plants on one’s skin is an effective way to “cleans” one’s mind, body, and spirit — though from what is not at all clear (here is a pretty much unhelpful description of the process).

Clearly, the first is an example of local knowledge that is not different in kind from scientific knowledge; and indeed, it’s a routine practice of botanists and zoologists all over the world to take advantage of such knowledge, there being nothing “alternative” about it. The second example has a vague whiff of quantum mechanics — which was, indeed brought up during the discussion — but no, chairs ain’t gonna change into bears (much less with a probability of “about 1%,” as stated by David during his talk). The third example is vaguely spiritual, perhaps hinting at the supernatural, and hardly seems to merit a spot in a science curriculum.

In a nutshell, it was clear to me that the positive claims made by supporters of Indigenous science reduce to an attempt to introduce what to me clearly qualifies as pseudoscience in the university curriculum. When they experience some pushback, however, they shift to a position that is entirely unobjectionable — like bringing students to nature walks or teaching them about the medicinal properties of the local flora. But such unobjectionable proposals seem to be obviously designed as Trojan horses to get the real crazy stuff in by way of a secondary entrance. Once a university hires an Indigenous scholar to teach Indigenous “science” there is very little oversight over what, exactly, the fellow will be teaching in the classroom. And the problem with Trojan horses, even when they are so obvious to spot, is that they tend to work — just ask Odysseus. This makes me worry for the future of Canadian education, as well as for the possibility of copycats soon appearing south of the C-border.

201 thoughts on “The problem with “Indigenous science”

  1. wtc48

    I was about to make ej’s comment on the Harvard Divinity School. I used to wonder about its tenure 50 years ago, when I passed it every day en route to the Music Bldg., and figured endowment was probably a factor. Most of those divinity schools were the seeds of the later universitied. My 3xgreat-grandfather, the son and father of a Presbyterian minister, was one of the first graduates of the Princeton seminary.

    A little beyond the Divinity School, on my morning walk, I would pass the bungalow in which Profs. Leary and Alpert were conducting their LSD experiments, and formulating a somewhat different theology.

    Liked by 1 person

  2. synred

    the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, which “aims to reveal the truth about the history and the ongoing legacy of Canada’s residential schools

    See “Rabbit Proof Fence”
    Rabbit-Proof Fence is a 2002 Australian drama film directed by Phillip Noyce based on the book Follow the Rabbit-Proof Fence by Doris Pilkington Garimara. It is loosely based on a true story concerning the author’s mother Molly, as well as two other mixed-race Aboriginal girls, who ran away from the Moore River Native Settlement, north of Perth, Western Australia, to return to their Aboriginal families, after being placed there in 1931. The film follows the Aboriginal girls as they walk for nine weeks along 1,500 miles (2,400 km) of the Australian rabbit-proof fence to return to their community at Jigalong, while being pursued by white law enforcement authorities and an Aboriginal tracker.[2]://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabbit-Proof_Fence_(film)

    https://goo.gl/i8i9Sn

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  3. Frances Widdowson

    Hello Massimo:

    Thank you so much for posting this on your blog. Hopefully people who value reason, evidence and logic in education for all people, regardless of their history of oppression, will see this discussion and begin to examine how terrible things are in Canada with respect to aboriginal education.

    I began studying this area back in the 1990s, when I worked for the Government of the Northwest Territories. At that time, the government was trying to “indigenize” its departments by incorporating indigenous “traditional knowledge”, which was, in part, based on their “spiritual teachings” (“revelatory knowledge”). Much of this constituted a form of “neotribal rentierism” (the rent that is extracted from governments, corporations and nonprofit entities to broker hunting and gathering/horticultural tribes into late capitalism); aboriginal organizations were putting forward the idea that aboriginal peoples’ traditional knowledge was essential for understanding things like the environmental impacts of a diamond mine. This would then result in millions of dollars being dispersed from governments, corporations and non-profit agencies to try to document it. The “knowledge”, of course, was either unsystematic local knowledge or aboriginal spiritual beliefs, none of which were very useful for trying to develop a more accurate understanding of environmental impacts. The demand that this knowledge be “respected”, however, had negative consequences for wildlife management because hunters argued that polar bear and bowhead whale populations were increasing – based upon the local knowledge that they saw more bears and whales. They also justified the killing with the spiritual belief that these animals were “presenting themselves” to the hunters, and to not kill them would be disrespectful and result in ecological problems. Aboriginal hunters also were possibly influenced by motivated reasoning because they wanted to hunt these threatened species.

    When I went to graduate school after I was terminated by the government for criticizing its traditional knowledge policy with Albert Howard (“Traditional Knowledge Threatens Environmental Assessment”, Policy Options, November 1996), I thought that academics would be interested in this perspective. Most were not. Many were sentimental in their thinking about aboriginal-non-aboriginal relations, and thought that agreement with anything that an aboriginal organization said was a form of decolonization and a way to right past wrongs. More disturbingly, some were the beneficiaries of neotribal rentierist processes whereby funds were disbursed by governments to promote initiatives like Indigenization.

    The Indigenization initiative, which began a few years ago in earnest, is mostly going to have an impact on the social sciences and humanities – archaeology, anthropology, history and political science (biology is the notable exception). These disciplines have been politicized when aboriginal-non-aboriginal relations are the subject. The historical occupancy of land has consequences for legal disputes over land ownership and resource rights. Claims about the pre-contact existence of aboriginal “nationhood” and “sovereignty” also forms the basis of claims for aboriginal control over various government programs such as education. This is not mean to be an argument in favour or against any of these disputes; it is just to show that the objective character of the research being undertaken has been compromised by political advocacy masquerading as scholarship.

    Aboriginal control over education, which the indigenization initiative is a part, is the most destructive of all these neotribal rentierist initiatives. This is because aboriginal organizations are demanding that the funding that the government is spending on aboriginal education should be under their control, and this is resulting in a substandard education. Arguments about increased control lead to assertions that aboriginal people should be hired to teach various subjects (enabling them to access these rents). Most of the people hired, however, will be less qualified because of the poor educational levels in aboriginal communities. References to “indigenous science” act to justify these low standards because it will be argued that aboriginal people are just as educated as non-aboriginal people; their scientific illiteracy just constitutes a different “world view” that should be respected.

    So far, these criticisms of indigenization are not well known because of a climate of groupthink, and the fact that indigenization advocates have attempted to demonize anyone who asks critical questions about the initiative. It has been implied that anyone who challenges the idea that indigenous people have an epistemologically different, yet valid, “way of knowing” is a colonialist/racist who is engaged in a hate crime intended to oppress aboriginal people. With Massimo’s attendance at the forum, and the direct exchange that transpired, hopefully the discussion is about to change and move in a more intellectually honest direction.

    Regards,

    Frances

    Liked by 6 people

  4. garthdaisy

    All culture is destroyed daily by new culture. That’s how culture works. I don’t live like my ancestors or believe what they believed because we now live in a global society with new information since my ancestors developed their traditions. No one should live as their ancestors did IMO and most people don’t. If they really want to, fine. But they probably only want to because they were taught that is what they ought to do according to tradition, not because they reasoned with an adult brain that living by their ancestor’s beliefs is best for them and the global community.

    Socratic

    I’ll come and go as I please and comment as I please. Wishing me away or suggesting that I go elsewhere will do you no good. Ig you have any on topic counterpoints to anything I have said, by al means let’er rip. But just saying that my comments are useless and suggesting I go away says more about you than I.

    Massimo,

    Here we go again. You could nip a lot of what is likely to come in the bud by admonishing comments like Dan’s “nonsense” and Socratic’s “go away” or you can just ban me I guess, but I will return fire if they keep it up. I don’t think there was anything egregious or out of line with my original comment but please let me know if you think there was.

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  5. Massimo Post author

    Garth,

    I dish it as I see it, or have time to see it. Sometimes to you and Coel, sometimes to Dan and Socratic. You are welcome to be back, but I retain absolute control concerning what is acceptable or not on this blog, and if people don’t like it, well, you know, the blogosphere is very, very large…

    Liked by 2 people

  6. Michael Fugate

    The problem is we could have learned much from indigenous cultures and instead ignored and tried to erase them. By the time anthropologists started work, many cultures had disappeared. For instance, almost none; none? of the native plants utilized for food in California were ever incorporated into non-indigenous diets. Languages which explained how people lived deteriorated into uselessness. Nothing can return anyone to those times and places.

    I really don’t have a problem with theology – although it is a misnomer; no one has the least clue about gods -no matter what that person says.

    Liked by 2 people

  7. Daniel Kaufman

    Massimo: Well, I certainly did not mean any sort of cheap shot, so, sorry about that.

    It can be, but it isn’t. That’s where the Center is located, after it moved from Aberdeen, where it was being allowed to wither. PTS saved it, and I’m glad for it. And as I explained, the history of Scottish philosophy is not unrelated to Scotland’s historical connection with Presbyterianism.

    Like it or not, one cannot often disentangle these sorts of interests. Some of the best historical, literary, and textual scholarship on Judaism, for example, is being done at places like the Jewish Theological Seminary, where they also train Rabbis, Cantors, and teachers for Jewish schools, in the Conservative Movement Our own specialist in Judaism, here, got his PhD. from Hebrew Union College, which also trains Rabbis and Cantors and teachers in the Reform movement. Indeed, he and our current Rabbi were in some classes together.

    I have never heard complaints about the quality of scholarship going on in the academic arms of these institutions. JTS has a very highly regarded undergraduate program, where students get dual undergraduate degrees from JTS and from Columbia/Barnard. (I used to be the Assistant to the Dean of that program.) Their Ph.D. programs are also top notch.

    There is a kind of atheist way of thinking that is unable to distinguish such excellent programs from Bible thumping fundamentalist schools and that strikes me as not only a mistake, but as probably stemming in good part from ignorance about the programs themselves; how they operate; the quality of scholars they employ; and the like. No one who knew anything about the graduate faculty and academic programs at PTS or JTS could possibly think that they are anything but first rate, in a purely scholarly sense. Again, as I mentioned, Bart Ehrman, one of the best historians of Christianity alive and very skeptical, is a PTS graduate.

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  8. Massimo Post author

    Dan,

    Again, no offense taken. Let me give you an example of the sort of people Baggini is talking about (and he is most definitely not a New Atheist!): Alving Plantinga. Plantinga doesn’t do philosophy of religion, whatever that would be. He does straight apologetics. Now, Notre Dame actually is a religious school, so fine. But something like that would, in my mind, not be good for a secular institution, private or public.

    As for historical entanglements, yes, they exist. We also occasionally make progress by disentangling ourselves from them.

    Liked by 1 person

  9. Rita Wing

    “a few flags began to go off in my head” – that conjures up a really warming picture – but whatever would George Orwell (“Politics and the English Language”)) 🙂

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  10. garthdaisy

    Massimo,

    I guess you’re not going to answer Coel’s valid question about Socratic’s comment to me. No worries. I can handle him. I thought you might want to handle him instead to keep the tone of this thread intellectual and on point rather than personal and snarky but like you said it’s your blog. If you want to leave his personalized snark for me to handle, I’ll do just that. Or you could nip it in the bud next time.

    Like

  11. Daniel Kaufman

    Massimo: Like it or not, people with certain interests are going to cluster around certain institutions. It will never be the case that some of the best historical, literary, and textual scholarship in Jewish and Christian antiquities isn’t going to be done at Seminaries and Divinity schools. There will always be overlap in the purely scholarly needs of Rabbinical students and Jewish studies PHDs and ditto for their Christian counterparts.

    Unlike you, I also don’t think that is a bad thing. Rabbinical and PhD students get a lot out of interacting with one another and approach texts like the Mishnah and Gemara in ways that are simultaneously similar and different in interesting ways. JTS iss a very intellectually strong and fertile environment for that reason; one of the strongest I’ve been in.

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  12. brodix

    Massimo,

    It all makes sense to me. Local flora, possibly fungi—-seeing chairs turn into bears—sitting around a sauna… Maybe if you experience it first hand and not just second hand, it all might come together a little more clearly.

    Like

  13. brodix

    While the conversation is about religion and cheap shots, can I ask Coel about the perfect knowledge that is apparently the basis for his belief in determinism, as expressed in the prior thread?
    I thought science is supposed to be bottom up, with top down emergent, not the other way around.

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  14. wtc48

    Further on religious education: I started college at Occidental, a private school with a Presbyterian endowment in the LA area. The only evidence of that endowment was the requirement that one take a course titled “The Literature of the Bible.” The professors that taught this course were two razor-sharp elderly ladies, and one of them always opened by asking if there were any Christians present. This was in 1953, so there weren’t a lot, but usually a few hands would go up, whereupon she would invite them cordially to leave. The material was textual history and criticism, and there would be no fundamentalist discourse.

    Liked by 1 person

  15. SocraticGadfly

    As for actual academic value, I think Harvard Div is probably NOT what some crack it up to be. Anecdotal, yes, but I used to be G+ friends with a Harvard Div attendee who firmly believed the Euthyphro dilemma did NOT apply to the god of Xianity.

    Nuff sed.

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  16. SocraticGadfly

    And, Prof. Widdowston, might you tell us what this proposed new book on the social effects of religion will cover? Given your intellect, and use of the language, it certainly sounds interesting.

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  17. Alan White

    Wow, go away for a day or so and hell (on earth) breaks out!

    There’s a place for indigenous studies as subject matter–cultural anthropology. But endowing a professorship or the like of such studies is to put the imprimatur on it of a source of possible rock-bottom truth. That’s unjustified.

    I will argue that Plantinga actually does philosophy of religion–but in the service of an apologetic for Reformed theology. This is not all that different than–say–van Fraassen doing philosophy of science in service to pragmatism. It could turn out, after all, that pragmatism is as an unfounded belief as is theism. (I chose this example because I favor pragmatism.)

    Liked by 1 person

  18. Robin Herbert

    First came across Plantinga in his review of “The God Delusion”.

    I can get past his quoting the “Yahweh” remark out of context and saying “Dawkins is angry with God”.

    But when he proposes “Divine Simplicity” as an answer to Dawkins point about complexity he failed to acknowledge that Dawkins mentions this as a possible answer in the book and actually spoke to some theologians about it. It is OK for him to disagree with Dawkins on the point but to pretend that this did not even occur to him is dishonest. Added to this is the fact that Plantinga himself doesn’t subscribe to the idea of Divine Simplicity.

    Couldn’t take Plantinga seriously after that – he puts apologetics ahead of integrity.

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  19. Sherlock

    Robin,

    Although Platinga doesn’t mention it in the body of his review, he does acknowledge that Dawkins referenced the God’s simplicity argument in his footnotes:

    4. The distinguished Oxford philosopher (Dawkins calls him a theologian) Richard Swinburne has proposed some sophisticated arguments for the claim that God is simple. Dawkins mentions Swinburne’s argument, but doesn’t deign to come to grips with it; instead he resorts to ridicule (pp. 110-111).

    I haven’t read Dawkin’s book so cannot comment on it, but Platinga seems quite generous in his acknowledgement of Dawkin’s expertise in biology and science writing and only cuts up rough when commenting on his lack of expertise in theology and philosophy.

    Liked by 1 person

  20. Sherlock

    Robin,

    Having said that, it seems Platinga himself does not subscribe to the concept of God’s simplicity, so your charge of his putting apologetics above integrity is probably valid. He’s not alone in this of course. Although the adverserial nature of debate is supposed to put opposing points of view to the test, the reality is more often that it puts winning the argument above searching for the truth.

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  21. Massimo Post author

    Alan,

    If Plantinga does philosophy of religion in the service of apologetics then he is not doing philosophy of religion, he is doing apologetics.

    I don’t find the analogy with van Fraasen to be a good one. Presumably van Fraasen doesn’t consider scientific non-realism to be a position true a priori, an article of faith. Pragmatism is not an unfounded belief (unlike theism), it is a philosophical position that may or may not me useful or acceptable to different people.

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  22. Haulianlal Guite

    A. Coel:

    While dying to return back to the previous issues half discussed, let me make a few remarks, yet again.

    || Theology, however (“study of the divine”) usually contains much that is faith-based rather than evidence-based, and universities should not be doing that. ||

    Expecting theology to be evidence-based is as good as expecting political science to be based on physics. If a university is a private one, its entirely the discretion of the owners/shareholders whether to include apologetics in their theology curricula. If an university in question is a public university however, everything about theology may still be included as “Religious Studies”, with the exception of apologetics. I do not see any room for religious apologetics in a secular state institution, but I do not see why religious studies should be excluded in toto.

    Of course Great Britain presents a curious exception as the most irreligious state socially and yet the most religious legally, among the major economies.

    ||If the claim is “chairs can change into bears” then it should not be taught however it is labelled, since it is not true.||

    I see no problem in someone teaching mountains can give birth to babies so long as its qualified that “x/y believes mountains …” (where x can be a person, institution, ideology, philosophy, etc), and is studied from all angles (literary, sociologically, psychologically, religiously, etc) except the epistemic one.

    ||I don’t object to private institutions that don’t get taxpayer money teaching a faith position.||

    Finally something we agree upon!

    B. Garth:

    ||I don’t know how teaching theology could help one understand the peoples of the world since the vast majority of religious people in the world are almost entirely ignorant of the actual theology behind their faith.||

    As their faith is based (howsoever indirectly) on their theology, it definitely can help in understanding them. Theologies can be studied sociologically, historically, psychologically – and yes, theologically too. If however their epistemic claims are to be addressed, the most proper field for this is philosophy of religion.

    ||You would come to understand more about the religious peoples of the world by studying cult indoctrination and reading Massimo’s books on pseudoscience than studying theology.||

    Augustine once advised never to judge a religion by its abuse, or by its criticism alone. I think this applies to all ideologies as such, but more so with religion. And its a really good advice.

    Two general observations on the Article:

    ||Cosmopolitanism is simply incompatible with special rights and exclusive education.||

    While this maybe so in an idealistic way, in practice it is not so, particularly in places with powerful ethnic and religious majorities. Assuming that ethnic, religious and cultural diversities are values worth preserving, the only practicable way to ensure their continued presence is to patronize certain ethno-cultural groups (religious minorities is another category). So you need positive discrimination for proper representation. For example, if a certain Canadian tribe has only 500 population in a region has a total population of 500,000, how will you ensure their political representation, unless certain seats are reserved for them? It is by safeguarding the ethno-cultural rights and privileges of minorities that India (another example) remains a secular, democratic state.

    Absent this, the only other way to prevent disappearance of minorities is for them to form an independent state where they can govern themselves the same way mainstream majorities govern theirs. Not really much of an option, since the independence movement is sure to be bloody, and objectionable in principle too. So I’m in favor of special rights and privileges for minorities. As for educational content, parts of the curricula can be cultural-specific (humanities and large chunks of social science – for example, history with special focus on the ethnicity’s history), while those that aim to study objective truths (science, math, philosophy) at least in intent, can be more cross-cultural.

    I fully concur with the rest of the assessment. I do not think any epistemic claim whatsoever, should be culturally relativized. Not because I believe there is an objective, monolithic truth man can discover (I’m an agnostic on truth and even facts) however, but because relativizing them to a culture will end any form of open discourse, which I believe is essential for a free, libertarian society.

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  23. Coel

    Hi Haulianlal,

    Expecting theology to be evidence-based is as good as expecting political science to be based on physics.

    No, it’s more like expecting political science to be evidence based. Or expecting any other claim to knowledge to have some evidence behind it.

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  24. Haulianlal Guite

    Regarding Plantinga, I must wholeheartedly disagree. While W.L Craig maybe regarded as an apologist (like Dawkins), Plantinga is indisputably a philosopher. His 3 books I have read (“The Nature of Necessity”, “God and Other Minds”, “The Ontological Argument”), his EAAN argument, his freewill defense, and his reformed epistemology, are truly philosophical contributions that deserve the most serious consideration.

    His other books that are of a more purely apologetic character (which are more recent, and I have not bothered to read them much), are, imo, simply instantiations of the general principles he developed in these truly worthy works. So how is this different from the popular books written in defense of atheism? And by the “popular books” I do not mean the hopeless preaching of the New Atheists whose arguments are confined to repeating such irksome fallacies like “atheism is not a belief but the absence of belief”, or the straw man songs poorly sung on the virtues of science.

    Doing philosophy of religion without addressing Plantinga’s arguments is (almost) akin to studying the fall of the roman empire without reading Gibbon.

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  25. Haulianlal Guite

    Coel:

    ||No, it’s more like expecting political science to be evidence based. Or expecting any other claim to knowledge to have some evidence behind it.||

    Not so. Point of the analogy being that theology purports to claim knowledge about the non-empirical, which is a different category entirely from the empirical, so to expect empirical evidence for a field that is non-empirical is to commit a category mistake (ah, now we can get back to the problem of defining empiricism and resume from there!)

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