The problem with “Indigenous science”

The logo of the Worldwide Indigenous Science Network

Last month I was invited by Frances Widdowson, a faculty in the Department of Economics, Justice and Policy Studies at Mt. Royal University, in Calgary, to participate to a panel discussion on the topic of the “indigenization” of the university curriculum. It was a weird experience, to say the least. [Warning: if you think that as a White Male European I am automatically disqualified from offering reasoned opinions on matters pertaining the history of exploitation of Indigenous people by Western nations, you may want to stop reading and take a walk. I’m trying to save you a possible ulcer.]

Canada is in the midst of a process of reconciliation with its Indigenous people, who have been exploited in ways similar to those experienced by their counterparts in what is currently the United States, in Central America, and in South America. The details vary from place to place, and so do the modalities of the exploitation, but the problem is common to the entire continent.

In the specific case of Canada, an overview of the process is presented at the web site of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, which “aims to reveal the truth about the history and the ongoing legacy of Canada’s residential schools [a system of boarding school aimed at integrating Indigenous kids into Western society, administered by Christian churches], and to guide a healing process of reconciliation among Canadians based on inclusion, mutual understanding, and respect.”

This post offers my thoughts as a layperson on Canada’s reconciliation process, and my opinions as a professional scientist-philosopher on the specific issue of indigenizing the science curriculum.

Before attending the panel I gave my customary talk on the difference between science and pseudoscience — the area of expertise that induced Frances to invite me in the first place. I also attended a talk by one of the panel members, David Newhouse, an Onondaga from the Six Nations of the Grand River community near Brantford, Ontario, and Chair and Professor in the Department of Indigenous Studies, Trent University.

The talk was on the broader process of reconciliation, and I will give you the highlights because they set the tone for what happened during the focal event, the panel discussion itself.

I learned a lot from David’s presentation. He talks calmly and deliberately, but his passion shines through nonetheless.

His first slide opened with the phrase “Before all other words are said we extend greetings to all of creation.” Which was a slight turn off to an atheist such as myself, but I didn’t mind, it was his talk after all. (Another participant to the panel, Root Gorelick, had, however, asked Frances to use “indigenous protocols,” and recommended that we “start with a local Elder smudging and welcoming everyone.” In response, Frances had argued that to participate in a ceremony with which one did not agree was not respectful, it was condescending.)

David explained that reconciliation is meant to correct what he called the “founding error,” the fact that no Indigenous people were present when the founding documents of Canada were drawn up.

He reminded us that the “long assault” on Indigenous people went on from 1857, with the passing of the Act to Encourage the Gradual Civilization of the Indian Tribes, to 1971, with the Withdrawal Statement of the Government of Canada on Indian policy, adding that the major tool of the long assault was the above mentioned network of residential schools. As a proponent of that approach once explained: “When one Indian boy or girl leaves this school with an education, the ‘Indian problem’ will forever be solved for him and his children.”

That sort of thing makes me cringe. It is abundantly clear to me, both from what I heard from David and from a bit of research on the topic done on my own, that the Canadian government’s approach had been a major blunder (even though it was probably well intentioned, from the point of view of the colonizers), and more broadly that a process of reconciliation is a very good way to go. That said, David used the highly emotional words “cultural genocide,” which made me a bit uncomfortable, both because of their obvious appeal to emotion, and because I tend to resist the metaphorical use of the word genocide, so not to diminish its impact when used in its original meaning of a deliberate, mass slaughtering of a particular people. (The term has been used by Chief Justice Beverly McLachlin.)

From then on, however, a few flags began to go off in my head as David continued his talk. For instance, David’s request for Indian control of Indian education, including the establishment of school boards, as well as the suggestion that Indians should be considered “citizens plus” with special rights, because they were charter members of Canada.

The problem with these sort of requests (other than that they will simply not be fulfilled, realistically) is that they fly straight into the face of Canada’s attempt to be a true multi-cultural society, welcoming people of all backgrounds and faiths. (Unlike, at the moment, its neighbor to the south.)

Cosmopolitanism is simply incompatible with special rights and exclusive education. And while it is perfectly understandable where such requests come from, in terms of historical wrongs, they would simply be wrongs of another type. It was a grievous mistake to attempt to eliminate Indigenous culture by forced assimilation into its Western counterpart. But it seems to me that respect for cultural traditions does not require a special status, something that in a sense embodies the opposite mistake of that represented by the residential schools. Indeed, it would be a disservice to Indigenous kids to isolate them culturally from the variety of traditions that characterize the rest of modern Canada, in the way a number of religious minorities in the United States wish to shelter their youth from the “corrupting” influence of other ways of thinking about the world.

Finally, David claimed that the process of reconciliation ought to be one for which there is no end point. This is odd, to say the least. The point of other truth and reconciliation commissions — in South Africa and Rwanda, for instance — has always been precisely to reach an end point, to acknowledge past wrongs, set up a proper system of reparations, and then shift to educational objectives to prevent future recurrences of the original problem. If people don’t accept an end point then resentment festers, perpetually undermining the goal of establishing a more harmonious society, constantly pitting people of different histories and cultures against each other, and generating further resentment on both sides.

And we finally come to the panel discussion itself. The point of contention was how to interpret article 62 of the recommendations issued by the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, which reads in part:

“We call upon the federal, provincial, and territorial governments, in consultation and collaboration with Survivors, Aboriginal peoples, and educators, to … Provide the necessary funding to post-secondary institutions to educate teachers on how to integrate Indigenous knowledge and teaching methods into classrooms. [and to] provide the necessary funding to Aboriginal schools to utilize Indigenous knowledge and teaching methods in classrooms.”

The keywords to pay attention to there are “Indigenous knowledge and teaching methods.”

The Commission goes on to explain: “Incorporating Indigenous knowledge in education is not only useful in building stronger intercultural relationships, and making the classroom more inviting to aboriginal students, it also provides alternative ways of teaching many concepts to children especially when it comes to topics related to the environment. Some schools that incorporated Indigenous learning into their curricula had lessons where students went on nature hikes, and learned how to grow traditional plants. Indigenizing education does not simply mean adding a chapter about residential schools to the textbook; it means including an Indigenous perspective in schools that would involve getting lessons from elders, taking nature walks to understand science, studying Indigenous language, and ultimately learning what it means to coexist in a just and peaceful way.”

Most of which I find entirely unobjectionable, as stated. The problem, apparently, is in how to interpret just how far this process should go.

The panel was made up of the organizer, Frances Widdowson; David Newhouse; Root Gorelick — who describes himself as a feminist anarchist evolutionary theorist, who primarily researches evolution of sex and diversity; Shawn England, who teaches Latin American and US history at Mount Royal; and yours truly. The whole thing was moderated by Gerry Cross, a Professor Emeritus of Mathematics and Computing at Mount Royal.

My notes on the individual presentations are not detailed enough to attempt a play-by-play report, but Frances told me that there is a good chance an edited volume or special journal issue will soon be in the works, including some contributions from scholars who couldn’t attend the panel, so stay tuned.

I will, however, comment on a few important points. Root, for instance, is a really nice guy with whom I had genial conversations over dinner and lunch. But he insisted that there are radically different ways of doing science — in support of the notion that there may be different ways to achieve knowledge, including Indigenous ones. For instance, he claims that unsystematic observations are perfectly valid scientific data. I responded that unsystematic observation may very well represent the beginning of a scientific investigation, but that “data” means one has some specific idea in mind, a theoretical framework to guide his investigations, and systematic sources — be they observational or experimental. Root also suggested — in a move eerily reminiscent of those of American creationists — that (Indigenous) kids should be exposed to both Western science and traditional “ways of knowing” so that they can decide what best fits their needs. To which I replied that no, education isn’t about subjecting students to all sorts of notions and let them decide. It is about sharpening their tools for better thinking and providing them with the best notions that human knowledge has arrived at so far. And yes, I’m perfectly aware that “best notions” and “better thinking” imply value judgments.

Shawn’s role was that of presenting a middle way between Root’s and David’s position on one side, and Frances’ and mine on the other. (If you want a taste of Frances’ take on this matter, check this article. In the interest of balance, here is one by Root.) In an attempt to strike a compromise, he claimed that indigenization can open new venues of inquiry, at which point I asked for specific examples, without getting much of a response (more on this point in a minute).

David attempted to pre-empt criticism along the lines that requiring the teaching of Indigenous “science” would run afoul of the principle of academic freedom by saying that “we don’t require other faculty to teach this.” In other words, the idea is to hire Indigenous faculty to teach Indigenous science. But, I replied, that’s simply dodging the bullet. Imagine for a minute someone wishing to teach homeopathy as if it were sound medicine and reassuringly telling the medical school that they are not required to do it, someone else will do it for them. That would be to spectacularly miss the point, I should think.

Since David too, like Shawn, insisted that indigenizing the university would be a plus because it would introduce both faculty and students to other ways of knowing, I asked again for specific examples. I finally got them.
Here are the only three that were presented during the entire panel discussion:

i) Indigenous people know the local flora and fauna well, including some of their medicinal properties (Indigenous biology).

ii) Chairs can change into bears, because energy is in movement and can change into matter (Indigenous “physics”).

iii) Going into a sauna and smudging some local plants on one’s skin is an effective way to “cleans” one’s mind, body, and spirit — though from what is not at all clear (here is a pretty much unhelpful description of the process).

Clearly, the first is an example of local knowledge that is not different in kind from scientific knowledge; and indeed, it’s a routine practice of botanists and zoologists all over the world to take advantage of such knowledge, there being nothing “alternative” about it. The second example has a vague whiff of quantum mechanics — which was, indeed brought up during the discussion — but no, chairs ain’t gonna change into bears (much less with a probability of “about 1%,” as stated by David during his talk). The third example is vaguely spiritual, perhaps hinting at the supernatural, and hardly seems to merit a spot in a science curriculum.

In a nutshell, it was clear to me that the positive claims made by supporters of Indigenous science reduce to an attempt to introduce what to me clearly qualifies as pseudoscience in the university curriculum. When they experience some pushback, however, they shift to a position that is entirely unobjectionable — like bringing students to nature walks or teaching them about the medicinal properties of the local flora. But such unobjectionable proposals seem to be obviously designed as Trojan horses to get the real crazy stuff in by way of a secondary entrance. Once a university hires an Indigenous scholar to teach Indigenous “science” there is very little oversight over what, exactly, the fellow will be teaching in the classroom. And the problem with Trojan horses, even when they are so obvious to spot, is that they tend to work — just ask Odysseus. This makes me worry for the future of Canadian education, as well as for the possibility of copycats soon appearing south of the C-border.

201 thoughts on “The problem with “Indigenous science”

  1. Daniel Kaufman

    Haul: He doesn’t think there is any non-empirical knowledge. He even thinks mathematics is empirical.

    I don’t agree with him on that. But I do agree with him on theology. I think it is an interesting and important subject to understand human religion as part of an historical and anthropological investigation. But it itself is about nothing, as there are no supernatural entities.

    Liked by 1 person

  2. Coel

    Hi Haulianlal,

    Not so. Point of the analogy being that theology purports to claim knowledge about the non-empirical, which is a different category entirely from the empirical, so to expect empirical evidence for …

    You’ve inserted the word “empirical”, not me. I’m sticking to my expectation that any claim to knowledge should be backed by evidence.

    The fact that theology regards evidence as an optional extra means that it is not a serious academic subject.

    Liked by 1 person

  3. Haulianlal Guite

    Dan:

    It is entirely possible theology is a subject without the most important content being present, but insofar as the epistemic claims of theology (such as this one) are concerned, I believe they should be properly studied in Philosophy of Religion.

    I agree however that there is no room for apologetics and evangelism of any religion in public education, but apologetics and missology are such a small subset of theology that the rest maybe studied as part of Religious Discourse.

    ||He doesn’t think there is any non-empirical knowledge. He even thinks mathematics is empirical.||

    Coel, let’s begin by returning to empiricism again. In our last conversation, you said something along the line that the empirical statement “100% solid human body” is compatible with “99% empty space body” in that both statements address the same phenomena at different levels, right? Let’s go with that for argument’s sake. Now, how many levels of empirical reality are there? Sub-atomic, atomic, molecular, and sensory level? Anything on the upper side beyond the sensory level?

    Like

  4. Haulianlal Guite

    Coel:

    ||You’ve inserted the word “empirical”, not me. I’m sticking to my expectation that any claim to knowledge should be backed by evidence.||

    Pray tell what “evidence” means unless its a shorthand for empirical evidence! Can there be any non-empirical evidence and if so, like what?

    Like

  5. Coel

    Hi Haulianlal,

    Pray tell what “evidence” means unless its a shorthand for empirical evidence! Can there be any non-empirical evidence and if so, like what?

    Well that’s a weird question to be asking me! My answer: What have you got? If people want to suggest that there are non-empirical forms of evidence then they are welcome to present their case. I’m not aware of anything such, but that is a post facto assessment of how well such cases have been made.

    Again, my primary demand is just that claims to knowledge be backed by evidence.

    … but apologetics and missology are such a small subset of theology …

    Really? I’m not aware of a single theological argument that is not apologetic special pleading!

    Now, how many levels of empirical reality are there? Sub-atomic, atomic, molecular, and sensory level?

    How many “levels”? However many you find useful! Analysing nature in terms of “levels” is a very useful way of thinking about and talking about the natural world. In doing so, people are entitled to specify what “level” they are talking about and what concepts they are applying to that level.

    From my perspective that all such “level” descriptions need to be fully and mutually inter-consistent, it doesn’t really matter how many levels you choose to employ in your description.

    Like

  6. Haulianlal Guite

    Coel:

    ||I’m not aware of a single theological argument that is not apologetic special pleading!||

    Coel, much of theology is not a system of arguments but a collection of dogmatic statements. Its not apologetics at all when Buddha says, for example, that “the world is full of suffering, and the path away from suffering is to follow the Eight-fold path”. Or when the First Commandment says, “thou shall have no other gods before me”. These are not defenses of the faith but the faith themselves; defending them is an entirely different thing. And I’m saying that, unless a public university is promoting a religious faith or defending it, let the system of belief be descriptively studied the same way that one may study, say, the ancient Roman constitution, or the world of Middle Earth.

    ||Well that’s a weird question to be asking me! My answer: What have you got? If people want to suggest that there are non-empirical forms of evidence then they are welcome to present their case.||

    First you objected to my characterization of your position as (roughly speaking) “empirically evidence-based” – that a claim must have empirical evidence for it to be taken seriously. But then you resent this characterization by objecting to my use of the word “empirical” as in “empirical evidence”. Well, if you believe evidence is simply empirical evidence, why object when I use the word synonymously? The word “evidence” by its very nature (“essence” if you wish) means the empirical! Since when you say “evidence” you usually mean something that can be traceable directly or indirectly to the senses (which is what “empirical” means).

    Second, if indeed your position is that empirical claims are the only types of epistemic claims worth taken seriously, I am addressing that now:

    ||From my perspective that all such “level” descriptions need to be fully and mutually inter-consistent, it doesn’t really matter how many levels you choose to employ in your description||

    I really don’t know what yo mean by “mutually inter-consistent” from the conversations we have had so far. Since you apparently believe the statement “my body is 100% solid” is mutually consistent with another statement “my body is 99% empty space” although the first statement is true at the sensory level and false at the subatomic level while the second is true at the subatomic and false at the sensory levels … is the statement “the earth is round” also mutually consisent with the statement “the earth is flat” too? Since the flatness of the earth is true at the sensory level on Earth but false at the “planetary level” (so to speak), while the rotundity of the earth is true at the planetary level but false at the sensory level (nobody sees the earth as round)?

    Furthermore, as “usefulness” appears to be the criteria for truth here, since presuming the Earth’s flatness rather than roundness is more useful in many areas (for example, in drawing two-dimensional maps like mercator projections, virtually all architectural designs of buildings, etc), just as presuming our body’s solidity is far more useful than presuming its void (for example, in designing fabrics and general discourse), must we conclude the earth is both flat and round in their own ways? Just as we must conclude we are both solid and void at different levels?

    Like

  7. Robin Herbert

    Plantinga’s EAAN and free will defence are fairly easy to dispose of.

    It sometimes seems to me that Plantinga and Craig are playing against the Washington Generals. Our host excluded of course.

    Liked by 2 people

  8. Coel

    Hi Haulianlal,

    The word “evidence” by its very nature (“essence” if you wish) means the empirical!

    I generally interpret “evidence” in line with the OED meaning: “the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid”. If you are telling me that empirical evidence is the only thing that would qualify under that definition then, well, it is not me who will argue with you!

    But, my point was that this is not an a priori rejection of the possibility of other types of evidence, it is a post facto assessment of all attempts at other sorts of evidence.

    If theologians want to present non-empirical evidence for their positions then they are welcome to make their case. I only ask that we can then examine their claims.

    I really don’t know what yo mean by “mutually inter-consistent” from the conversations we have had so far.

    It merely means no inconsistencies, such that both can be true at the same time.

    Since you apparently believe the statement “my body is 100% solid” is mutually consistent with another statement “my body is 99% empty space” although the first statement is true at the sensory level and false at the subatomic level while the second is true at the subatomic and false at the sensory levels …

    The first statement is only attempting to apply to the “macroscopic” level on a scale of typically 1 m. The second statement is only attempting to apply to the atomic level of typically 10^-10 metres. That’s why there is no inconsistency.

    Every single descriptive statement is always and necessarily a simplified account that concentrates on some aspects but not others. A statement about how something appears on one scale can be very different from a statement about how something appears on a scale that is a factor 10^10 different.

    is the statement “the earth is round” also mutually consisent with the statement “the earth is flat” too?

    You can certainly describe the Earth as locally flat for some purposes (a region of a spherical surface can be described as locally flat to a sufficient accuracy for some purposes).

    Another good example of different ways of describing is a fluid such as air or water. One can legitimately describe air as a continuous and smooth substance (described by parameters such as density, pressure, temperature) or one can describe it in terms of discrete air molecules (to each of which one can apply terms such as mass and velocity, but not the macroscopic terms “density, pressure, temperature).

    Both descriptions are simplifications of the full picture, and both are fully consistent with each other since we understand the way in which one description transitions into the other as we change the level and scale of the description.

    Liked by 1 person

  9. Michael Fugate

    Yes Robin, Plantinga’s EAAN is not worth much. He may complain that Dawkins didn’t learn enough theology before writing the God Delusion, but Plantinga didn’t bother to learn enough biology before taking on the EAAN.

    Like

  10. Haulianlal Guite

    A. Robin:

    ||Plantinga’s EAAN and free will defence are fairly easy to dispose of.||

    That so? Have you really bothered to study the arguments at all? I mean, at all? I’d say the freewill defence entirely succeeds in disarming the logical problem of evil (indeed, most philosophers including atheists will agree on this), and the EAAN is a tough nut. Can’t wait to see how exactly you so easily dispose both off!

    Also, I think the kalam argument is sound if you grant the principle of sufficient reason for the major premise and current big bang cosmology for the minor premise (you can always reject both).

    However, Plantinga is more a philosopher than Craig is an apologist, so the two are entirely different.

    B. Coel:

    ||“the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid”||

    Yes, this definition is accurate to the extent that, in the context of natural phenomena, the word “facts” and “information” here mean things that ultimately have a basis in sensory evidences – in other words, empirical. So therefore, to demand that there be empirical evidence for non-empirical theology (I suppose you mean God here?) is indeed a categorical mistake: it will be as strange as discovering migration laws in the list of scientific laws as it will be to find evidence of a non-natural God’s existence in nature.

    ||But, my point was that this is not an a priori rejection of the possibility of other types of evidence, it is a post facto assessment of all attempts at other sorts of evidence.||

    This is an a priori rejection in the sense that all other sorts of evidence are ruled out by definition, since the only type of evidence now admissible is something that can be perceived with our senses, directly or indirectly. In other words, empirical.

    ||The first statement is only attempting to apply to the “macroscopic” level on a scale of typically 1 m. The second statement is only attempting to apply to the atomic level of typically 10^-10 metres. That’s why there is no inconsistency.||

    By this criterion, the statement “the earth is flat” is only attempting to apply to the smaller scale of the entire line of sight for all observers within Earth’s atmosphere. The second statement “the earth is round” is only attempting to apply to the higher scale of the entire line of sight for an observer at least from the Exosphere and outwards. So the flatness of the earth is conditionally true just as the rotundity of the earth is!

    ||You can certainly describe the Earth as locally flat for some purposes (a region of a spherical surface can be described as locally flat to a sufficient accuracy for some purposes).||

    Completely agree. If one can live on the surface of the sun for instance, given its size, all things equal, most instruments may need to be designed with the presumption of a flat sun. And the inverse is also true. You can certainly describe the Earth as spherical for some other purposes.

    Now since all these are happily granted, what if all models and descriptions are true in their respective ways, relative to the conditions prescribed for each respective model? It appears there are no models that can be said to be unconditionally true or unconditionally false. As the Jains will say, “it is true, from a certain point of view; and it is false, from a certain point of view” (anekantvada … a position that will also explain the resilience of asiatic philosophical worldviews, why modern science can’t even begin to make a dent on them).

    But dear sir, is this not epistemic relativism? And if so, will it not mean scientific models themselves are relatively true (for some purposes), but not absolutely? Are not religious models themselves also relatively true (for some other purposes), but again, not absolutely? And when there is no inconsistency between them, and there are none, why must one be rejected at all?

    Like

  11. garthdaisy

    Haul,

    “As their faith is based (howsoever indirectly) on their theology, it definitely can help in understanding them.”

    This would mean if you know one Christian you know them all. Silly. A person’s faith only tells us what bs they have been taught, It doesn’t tell us anything about them as a human being, Their personality, their wants and desires, their passion, their compassion, their fears their aesthetic preferences. None of theses qualities come from their faith, but from their biology. The existence of religions and faith overall tells us that humans as a species are pretty gullible, and particularly credulous during childhood, but that’s about all it tells us about them as human beings. Biology and life experience will give you much greater insight to individual human personalities.

    “Augustine once advised never to judge a religion by its abuse, or by its criticism alone”

    I judge all theology for what it is. Complete and utter bullshit. It does not provide people with personality and soul it hijacks their mind, most commonly through childhood indoctrination. This is what it was designed to do. It’s a tool for oligarchs. It’s a fantastic slave maker. That’s all it has ever been. That is the only value it has ever had.

    Socratic

    Blow me.

    Like

  12. Haulianlal Guite

    Garth:

    ||A person’s faith only tells us what bs they have been taught, It doesn’t tell us anything about them as a human being||

    A person’s faith tells us what he believes and why he believes them, in addition to what he has been taught – just as another’s faithlessness (which requires greater psychological upwelling) is a key to his psychology, social circle, background, etc. Your spirited atheism can tell us a lot about how you spend (and do not spend) your time, and money, just as my equally spirited theism can tell one a lot about me. From my limited exposure to your faithlessness, I can, for example, deduce that your deepest exposure to religious studies is Hitchens (?) and Dawkins (!), and other cartoons of the same ilk (though Hitchens was a famously lovable antigod cheerleader).

    Doubtless biology, psychology and sociology can tell us a lot about a person. So can his beliefs and disbeliefs. Its never either/or. Why not use both? Nobody advocates a schizophrenic approach.

    ||The existence of religions tells us that humans as a species are pretty gullible, and particularly credulous during childhood, but that’s about all it tells us about them as human beings.||

    I’d say such egregious fallacies count as evidence atheists as a group fare no better than theists in the gullibility scale, increasing in incredulity with years as they suppress their childhood wonders to end up as intellectual pigs, lazying in the throes of comfortable disbelief cushions. So it is definitely worth pondering why some seemingly reasonable people embrace irreligious beliefs for the slimmest of reasons too (especially those who become absolutely convinced Darwinian evolution rules God out). Gullibility is a very natural human trait our long evolutionary history has helped us master – one need not look beyond the sheer list of confirmation biases for evidence, or what comes to the same, read them in Dawkins’ works.

    When atheism has become the new academic currency for gaining automatic credibility, just as anglicanism was the gateway to acceptance in King James’ England, saving as it did many a brainy people from the need to critically think to retain that childhood wonder which polite society gently suppresses with a scornful stare, it is easy to see how the contemporary atheism community is now proner to believing hubris, cliches and embarassingly indefensible fallacies … far more than their predecessors were.

    Gone are the days when atheists can be counted to know what it is that they disbelieve, to say nothing of those they now believe!

    Yes. Gone.

    [p.s: sweeping polemical generalizations here, much like the post I’m responding to. Of course I understand a sizeably minority of atheists still reason beyond the mere pretense].

    Like

  13. garthdaisy

    Haul,

    I’ve been an atheist since I was 6 years old. I basically realized it the first time someone asked me if I believed in God. I said no. because I spotted the bs even back then. Had never heard of Dawkins or Hitchens at the time. Their atheist books were not even published. Up until that point however I had been to Sunday school and was taught all about God by clergy. But they were lying. I could tell by the answers they gave to my very legitimate questions. They were lying. Disseminating bs to a child. My bs detector remains as strong today as it was back then.

    But here is a challenge you might be up for. My good friend Michael is a Christian. So what do you know about him? I suggest nothing other than he is Christian. Is he an asshole or a nice guy? Is he brave or a coward? Is he generous or stingy? Capitalist or socialist? Is he an introvert or an extrovert. Is he compassionate or cold hearted? Is he law abiding or an outlaw? Does he prefer Spielberg movies or Spike Jonze movies? Does he really believe in God or is he just playing the game? Does he believe in God through indoctrination or did he come to his belief via reason or revelation?

    You know none of these things about him. So what do you know? You know he is a Christian. That’s it. It tells you absolutely nothing about what kind of person he is, what his dreams and desires are, what motivates him, what doesn’t motivate him. It only tells you what tribal bs he was taught. As to how that bs affects him and how his personality reacts to that bs is beyond your capacity to know. Because you don’t know anything about him. You know his “faith.” That is all. And it tells you nothing else about him. But if I’m wrong. Tell me something you know about my friend Mike the Christian.

    Like

  14. Haulianlal Guite

    Barth:

    ||I’ve been an atheist since I was 6 years old.||

    I find it difficult to take seriously someone – anyone – who already commits to a particular belief on the ultimate things at the same age one learns the truth about Santa Claus, and long before one knows what science, philosophy and the rest is all about. Particularly if this belief is consistently held like a rock in a river, without faltering or wavering, despite the zillion new things the world has to throw since 6 years before puberty hits.

    While such a consistent zealot of faith withstanding all assaults come what may will not win the slightest response from me outside, this being a most respectable blog for people who are all presumably rational (unless mightily proven otherwise), I shall nevertheless take your comments charitably – in the name of Christian generosity.

    About Michael. Let’s assume he is a sincere Christian, parrots off as much as you, and dresses up polemics in the mantle of discourse, with his speed of speech outpacing his thoughts, consistently. Being a “sincere Christian” is already a statement laden with a host of things about him. So there will be a host of Sherlock-like deductions we can make, and quite a lot of them will hit the mark. And then, for every unique information you may add, the number of reasonable deductions that can be made, will increase too.

    Michael however has not said a word here yet, so not much can be read into that. But you have said much of your faith on the contrary, and on this basis, some very helpful deductions (just as I did here) can be made that will be as true as light’s speed is 300,000 kms/sec (well, not exactly that, but that approximates – you see what I mean).

    In the very least the central claim appears to be true, since you yourself obviously deduce everything about religions without knowing their abcs, at the considered, well-informed age of 6.

    The more you write, the truer it is that an atheist need not be credible so long as he knows how to repeat these 4 mantras (“Four Noble Truths”?) in a hundred colorful ways (like some pretty imaginary-deficient children have learnt to do):

    Mantra 1: science is amazing, and its the key to everything! (nope, you need not bother to learn a single scientific theory. Just read book titles and atheistic tweets from time to time to show how much “science” you “know”);
    Mantra 2: evolution is amazing, does away with God! (no need to bother learning the details of evolutionary biology. Just know how to parrot this after watching technobabbles of Star Trek and Doctor Who);
    Mantra 3: philosophy is bullshit! (a new mantra born in 2012, but pregnant long before, which when combined with mantra 1 & 2 makes for an amazingly respectable person); and finally –
    Mantra 4: religion is the greatest bullshit! (which as the fuselage for the rest, makes the concerned an intellectually-fulfilled atheist).

    Learn ways to parrot these mantras, and you never need to further prove your intellectual credibilities in the academic environment. So let’s teach them young, maybe at 6 too – its the key to respectability after all!

    [p.s: a lot of dumb theists there too. yep, atheists are in good company].

    Like

  15. couvent2104

    How about a discussion about the Root Gorelick article?
    I find it slightly creepy.
    Every argument and analysis in PoS is turned against itself. With utmost sincerity. Well, not every argument and analysis of course, but I still get the impression that PoS has created a fine rhetorical arsenal for people who think that chairs may turn into bears.

    Like

  16. Robin Herbert

    Hi Haulianlal,

    “That so? Have you really bothered to study the arguments at all? I mean, at all?”

    Yes if course I have, I would not have made that comment otherwise. So your question seems a little odd.

    Like

  17. Michael Fugate

    I read the Gorelick article. “The gentleman doth protest too much, methinks”. I couldn’t see a single thing that would warrant a different science for indigenous people. He was trying really hard to find a difference, but water of evidence slowly but surely ran through the fingers of truth.

    Liked by 1 person

  18. Massimo Post author

    I would like to note how the ongoing discussion among Coel, Garth, Haulianlal et al. not only has little to do with the OP, but is a perfect example of what Julian Baggini was writing in chapter 1 of the Edge of Reason, see my post about it: http://tinyurl.com/m5slfso

    Like

  19. Coel

    Hi Haulianlal,

    When I stated that I was open to theologians presenting any sort of claimed evidence, not just empirical evidence, you replied:

    “The word “evidence” by its very nature (“essence” if you wish) means the empirical!”

    Later, though, you say:

    “This is an a priori rejection in the sense that all other sorts of evidence are ruled out by definition, since the only type of evidence now admissible is something that can be perceived with our senses, directly or indirectly. In other words, empirical.”

    Thus you’re not being consistent in how you’re using the term. Anyhow, I repeat, I am open to theologians presenting whatever sort of evidence they think they have, so long as we can then evaluate whether it is evidence. I am not making an a priori declaration that I will only consider empirical evidence.

    I also note how usual it is for theists to descend into these sort of games about the nature of evidence, rather than straightforwardly present some evidence.

    I find it difficult to take seriously someone – anyone – who already commits to a particular belief on the ultimate things at the same age one learns the truth about Santa Claus, …

    But atheism isn’t a “belief”, it is merely finding the claims of theists unconvincing. It is readily possible to do that from a young age.

    I recall when I must have been about 8 or 9. I didn’t want to go to church one Sunday morning, since it was warm and sunny outside and I’d much have preferred to play football outside with my brother. I offered the opinion that it wasn’t actually worth going to church because that stuff wasn’t actually real. I remember my Mum being quite upset by that opinion, which, in turn, completely puzzled me.

    You see, at that age, it hadn’t occurred to me that adults actually believed that stuff, to me it was obviously a game that was played, in the same way that we kids played make-believe games all the time, even though we knew full well that they weren’t real. Why we all played the church make-believe game wasn’t particularly clear to me, and I’d have much preferred playing football, but then lots of adult things were pretty baffling to kids. I remember being very baffled and perturbed by the implication that my parents genuinely believed in the church stuff.

    Like

  20. Daniel Kaufman

    Gosh, Hal, I thought you were a lot smarter — and a lot more interesting — prior to this conversation.

    I mean I’ve had very strong disagreements with Coel and even gotten quite angry with him, but even I think those “Mantras” you described as characterizing atheism are just plain hooey.

    I am a person who is very invested my (Jewish) religious community, as people here will attest, and I never mock or make fun of other peoples’ much stronger religious commitments, but I am still an atheist, in that I do not believe in the existence of anything supernatural.

    And I assure you, those Mantras do not characterize me at all.

    Liked by 1 person

  21. Haulianlal Guite

    Robin:

    ||Yes if course I have, I would not have made that comment otherwise. So your question seems a little odd.||

    Unless this is an improper place to do so, can you elaborate a little on how his argument is done away with? Just one refutation.

    Coel:

    ||Thus you’re not being consistent in how you’re using the term.||

    I don’t see how. In either case I’m stating that “evidence” means “empirical evidence”by definition (traceable to the senses); therefore, a priori.

    || I am not making an a priori declaration that I will only consider empirical evidence.||

    This statement in context is meaningless in light of the fact “evidence” can only possibly mean empirical evidence. Or, let’s put it this way. Can anything count as “evidence” that is not ultimately traceable to the senses? If so, what kind? If not, it simply means you accept only empirical evidence a priori.

    ||I also note how usual it is for theists to descend into these sort of games about the nature of evidence, rather than straightforwardly present some evidence.||

    On the contrary, most theists I know of (including myself once upon a time) will attempt to present evidences for God’s existence – design argument in particular, even the kalam cosmological argument too. I don’t believe the evidentialist arguments for God succeeds; I don’t believe that shows God’s non-existence, however.

    Discussions regarding the nature of evidence is a “game” played in serious philosophy. Elliot Sober’s book “Evidence and Evolution: The Logic Behind the Science”, which I have read recently, is a good example to start with for reading the issues involving the concept of evidence, if you’re up for it.

    ||But atheism isn’t a “belief”, it is merely finding the claims of theists unconvincing.||

    Of course its a belief, whoever invented this dangerously complacent myth?!
    First, the simplest of logical concepts – obversions and contrapositions – are sufficient to show an assertion can be reframed as a denial and vice-versa. For example, my statement “he is an american” (an assertion) is logically equivalent to “he IS NOT a non-american” (a denial).
    Second, finding something unconvincing requires belief as much as finding something convincing does. If someone believes in Marxism and another disbelieves, both are beliefs – either states are beliefs of their respective positions, and disbeliefs of their contrasting ones.
    Third, if “belief” or “faith” is a term that so offends, let’s not use them at all. This is a semantics only. Let’s just say “do you hold that atheism is true” or “do you not hold atheism is true”, or something like that.
    Fourth, do you really believe what you just said?

    This claim “atheism is not a belief but a rejection of belief” myth must be one of the most popularly pervasive (as if there is something wrong with belief per se) myth to come out of the New Atheist horse.

    As for your childhood atheistic testament, I never cast doubt on the possibility. Just on the stupidity of thinking a childhood belief developed at a time when one doesn’t even know what “evidence” means (arguable we still don’t, though at a loftier level this time!), can be considered rational at all, whether it be belief in God’s existence or non-existence.

    You see, rationality is not about beliefs at all. Rather, it is a process, our ability to give warrant from our beliefs. If someone believes the Earth is round without knowing why, I don’t consider the person rational with regards to this aspect. Rationality crucially involves the ability to account for why you hold to this or that position. Let’s not pretend a child of 6 or 8 (even early teens, with very few exceptions) can be rational about such big issues – be they theists or atheists.

    Like

  22. Haulianlal Guite

    Dan:

    ||And I assure you, those Mantras do not characterize me at all.||

    I don’t think it characterizes you or most of the bloggers here, most of whom know more science and philosophy than I do. I was making a general claim regarding many public atheists these days, especially those influenced by the New Atheist movement. My response was exclusively to Garth’s dismissal of religions, which I found to be pure polemic without any substance whatsoever.

    Repeat: I’ve never dismissed theism, atheism or any belief system in any such brush. Just some people. The contra of those mantras work just as well for many of the religious.

    Like

  23. Haulianlal Guite

    ||One more thing, of all the faults Robin may have, not having read something he is talking about is not one of them.||

    I haven’t had the pleasure of encountering him in a conversation yet, but when Plantinga’s freewill defense (EAAN not so much) is dismissed offhandedly without arguments supplied, forgetting for a moment I’m the lone theist here in a blog that begins with the presumption of atheism, I jumped the conclusion (shoe’s on the other foot for theist blogs, so no problems there). Given the huge literature on EAAN however, it will be wonderful if Massimo can write about this too, so we can discuss!

    Yeah, this thread has veered quite far off course from the article (but maybe that’s because none find anything objectionable in substance for a change!)

    Like

  24. Michael Fugate

    Haulianlal, I listed three links to refuting EAAN above.
    Wilkins points out that Plantinga’s definition of naturalism is not standard. Plantinga has bitten hard on intelligent design – an idea without any substance. It is not hard to find detractors.

    Like

  25. SocraticGadfly

    More seriously — at the same time, at least south of the US/Canada border, American Indians still have trouble with a lot of European-dominated entities, organizations, etc.

    It was no more than a decade ago that a group of health scientists and biologists from one of the public universities in the US Southwest (will see if I can Google up a link) got busted for using genetic samples of American Indian tribespeople (primarily Pima and Tohono O’Oodham) for all sorts of research beyond diabetes research, which was all that had been mentioned in the request for DNA samples.

    I do think that, per the professor, there is some sort of “industry” involved … just as Jesse Jackson arguably has a similar industry. And we could think of similar ones for other minorities — and for the WASP majority, namely, “The Establishment.”

    At the same time, as incidents like the above show, these concerns of American Indians, and others, don’t come out of the blue, either.

    Getting back to the use of “genocide,” or anything similar. More than 20 years ago, history textbooks wouldn’t even have mentioned such an idea. It’s still hard to get it mentioned in a wingnut state like here in Texas.

    Happy mediums on issues like this are hard to find. Witness NAGPRA, and the related tussles over Kennewick Man.

    Like

  26. Coel

    Hi Haulianlal,

    You are, at this point, baffling me:

    … in light of the fact “evidence” can only possibly mean empirical evidence.

    Then what did you mean by “other sorts of evidence” in your statement:

    “This is an a priori rejection in the sense that all other sorts of evidence are ruled out by definition, since the only type of evidence now admissible is something that can be perceived with our senses, directly or indirectly. In other words, empirical.” ?

    For example, my statement “he is an american” (an assertion) is logically equivalent to “he IS NOT a non-american” (a denial).

    Sure, but both of those are assertions. In contrast, the stance: I am not assenting to the claim “he is an American”, is not an assertion of “he is not an American”.

    Second, finding something unconvincing requires belief as much as finding something convincing does. If someone believes in Marxism and another disbelieves, both are beliefs

    No, not at all. If one asserts that Marxism is false then that is a belief. But someone could find Marxism unconvincing while not being convinced it is false.

    Let’s just say “do you hold that atheism is true” or “do you not hold atheism is true”, or something like that.

    Atheism is NOT the statement “there is no God”. You theists can insist that it is till you are blue in the face but you’ll be wrong every time.

    The term “atheism” describes a state, it means “lack of theism”. Thus it is not a claim, and it makes no sense to state that it is either true or false.

    Fourth, do you really believe what you just said?

    Yes.

    This claim “atheism is not a belief but a rejection of belief” myth must be one of the most popularly pervasive … myth to come out of the New Atheist horse.

    It was current long, long before New Atheism.

    Just on the stupidity of thinking a childhood belief developed …

    It was not a “belief”, not an assertion, I just found church stuff unconvincing. And it hadn’t occurred to me that it was supposed to be taken as true.

    Let’s not pretend a child of 6 or 8 (even early teens, with very few exceptions) can be rational about such big issues – be they theists or atheists.

    Well sure, but if I was being blunt I’d say that most adult Christians are also incapable of defending their faith rationally and intellectually.

    Like

Comments are closed.