One more on mathematical Platonism

IMG_8215Mathematical Platonism is one of those things I changed my mind about over time. And, of course, I may change it again. I began with curiosity and at least partial assent, convinced that mathematics is, indeed, uncannily weird. Too weird for there not to be some substance to the idea that mathematical truths are not invented by mathematicians, but rather “discovered,” in a way analogous to how astronomers discover planets (though, obviously, not literally: no telescope will ever show you the Pythagorean theorem…).

Here is an article I wrote for Philosophy Now back in 2011 where I sympathize with the Platonists. But by 2013 I strongly rejected the idea as presented by mathematician Max Tegmark (see this post at Rationally Speaking), and in 2015 I finally found what I still consider a good, non-Platonist, explanation of the weirdness of mathematics, as proposed by physicist Lee Smolin and summarized in this essay in Scientia Salon. Two more years have passed, so I guess it’s time to revisit the issue once more.

This time the springboard is provided by a critical paper by theoretical physicist Carlo Rovelli, entitled “Michelangelo’s stone: an argument against Platonism in mathematics,” published in the European Journal for Philosophy of Science (available for free here). Let’s take a look.

Rovelli asks whether there is a Platonic world M of mathematical facts, and, if so, what M may contain, precisely. In his paper he submits that if M is too large, it is uninteresting (in a sense to be explained in a minute), and if it is smaller and interesting, then it is not independent of us. Both alternatives — he says — challenge mathematical Platonism. He suggests that the universality of human mathematics may be a prejudice and illustrates contingent aspects of classical geometry, arithmetic and linear algebra, using them to make the case that what we call mathematics is, in fact, always contingent.

Rovelli begins by defining mathematical Platonism as “the view that mathematical reality exists by itself, independently from our own intellectual activities,” and acknowledges that it is a position accepted by some leading mathematicians, and so not to be taken lightly. He then introduces the idea of a mathematical world M of which he sets out to investigate the major characteristics.

First off, then, what does M contain? “Certainly M includes all the beautiful mathematical objects that mathematicians have studied so far. This is its primary purpose. It includes the real numbers, Lie groups, prime numbers and so on. It includes Cantor’s infinities, with the proof that they are ‘more’ than the integers, in the sense defined by Cantor, and both possible extensions of arithmetic: the one where there are infinities larger than the integers and smaller than the reals, and the one where there aren’t. It contains the games of game theory, and the topos of topos theory. It contains lots of stuff.”

But of course M — for a Platonist — also contains all the mathematical objects that mathematicians haven’t discovered yet. Rovelli says that M must contain the ensemble of all non-contradictory choices of axioms. “But something starts to be disturbing. The resulting M is big, extremely big: it contains too much junk. The large majority of coherent sets of axioms are totally irrelevant.” Ah, but irrelevant to what, and according to whom?

Here is where Rovelli introduces the metaphor that gives the title to his paper:

“During the Italian Renaissance, Michelangelo Buonarroti, one of the greatest artists of all times, said that a good sculptor does not create a statue: he simply ‘takes it out’ from the block of stone where the statue already lay hidden. A statue is already there, in its block of stone. The artists must simply expose it, carving away the redundant stone. The artist does not ‘create’ the statue: he ‘finds’ it.”

Sounds familiar? That’s pretty much what mathematical Platonists (or, really, Platonists of any stripe) claim. Rovelli acknowledges that, in a trivial sense, Buonarroti was right, since the statue is made of a subset of the grains composing the original block of stone. The problem is that there is an infinite number of such subsets, and that it is the artist that — arbitrarily — picks the subset that will then become the finished statue.

Here is an example of a Michelangelo statue, the horned Moses, that I photographed in the Church of St. Peter in Chain in Rome:

Mosè di Michelangelo, Basilica San Pietro in Vincoli

Rovelli goes on to say that one can tell the same story about the ensemble of all possible books, as recounted in the beautiful story by Jorge Luis Borges, The Library of Babel.

“Like Michelangelo’s stone, Borges’s library is void of any interest: it has no content, because the value is in the choice, not in the totality of the alternatives.”

Rovelli, intriguingly, goes further and says (correctly, I think) that science itself could be regarded in the same fashion, as the denotation of a subset of all of philosopher David Lewis’s possible worlds (see modal logic).

“What we call mathematics is an infinitesimal subset of the huge world
defined above: it is the tiny subset which is of interest for us. Mathematics is about studying the ‘interesting’ structures. So, the problem becomes: what does ‘interesting’ mean?”

The next step in Rovelli’s paper is to highlight the fact that interest, so to speak, is in the eye of the interested: “What is it that makes certain sets of axioms defining certain mathematical objects, and certain theorems, interesting? There are different possible answer to this question, but they all make explicit or implicit reference to features of ourselves, our mind, our contingent environment, or the physical structure our world happens to have.”

But, the Platonist will object, we actually expect any intelligent life form in the universe to arrive at the same mathematical truths that we have discovered. Well, do we? As a way to undermine this claim, Rovelli presents a number of examples in which what appears to be universal mathematics turns out, in fact, to be contingent on human peculiarities or on the human point of view. His case studies include: the geometry of a sphere, linear algebra, and the idea of natural numbers. All three are worked out in some detail, but I will pick just the latter for illustration.

“Natural numbers seem very natural indeed. There is evidence that the brain is pre-wired to be able to count, and do elementary arithmetic with small numbers. Why so? Because our world appears to be naturally organized in terms of things that can be counted. But is this a feature of reality at large, of any possible world, or is it just a special feature of this little corner of the universe we inhabit and perceive?”

The latter, argues Rovelli. First off, “the notion of individual ‘object’ is notoriously slippery, and objects need to have rare and peculiar properties in order to be countable. How many clouds are there in the sky? How many mountains in the Alps? How many coves along the coast of England? How many waves in a lake?How many clods in my garden? These are all ill-defined questions.”

Then Rovelli introduces a thought experiment that directly challenges the Platonist view:

“Imagine some form of intelligence evolved on Jupiter, or a planet similar to Jupiter. Jupiter is fluid, not solid. This does not prevent it from developing complex structures: fluids develop complex structures, as their chemical composition, state of motion, and so on, can change continuously from point to point and from time to time, and their dynamics is governed by rich nonlinear equations.”

The problem, however, is that there is nothing to count in a fluid environment, so our hypothetical Jovians will be highly unlikely to “discover” the natural numbers.

“The math needed by this fluid intelligence would presumably include some sort of geometry, real numbers, field theory, differential equations…, all this could develop using only geometry, without ever considering this funny operation which is enumerating individual things one by one. The notion of ‘one thing,’ or ‘one object,’ the notions themselves of unit and identity, are useful for us living in an environment where there happen to be stones, gazelles, trees, and friends that can be counted. The fluid intelligence diffused over the Jupiter-like planet, could have developed mathematics without ever thinking about natural numbers. These would not be of interest for her.”

So we may have a concept of integers because of the peculiarities of the Terran environment. Moreover, continues Rovelli, “modern physics is intriguingly ambiguous about countable entities. On the one hand, a major discovery of the XX century has been that at the elementary level nature is entirely described by field theory. Fields vary continuously in space and time. There is little to count, in the field picture of the world. On the other hand, quantum mechanics has injected a robust dose of discreteness in fundamental physics: because of quantum theory, fields have particle-like properties and particles are quintessentially countable objects.” So maybe the Jovian intelligence will arrive at the concept of integers, but only after having discovered quantum mechanics! As Rovelli puts it, “what moderns physics says about what is countable in the world has no bearing on the universality of mathematics: at most it points out which parts of M are interesting because they happen to describe this world.”

In the concluding part of his paper Rovelli writes: “Why has mathematics developed at first, and for such a long time, along two parallel lines: geometry and arithmetic? The answer begins to clarify: because these two branches of mathematics are of value for creatures like us, who instinctively count friends, enemies and sheep, and who need to measure, approximately, a nearly flat earth in a nearly flat region of physical space.”

Even the history of mathematics as a field of inquiry militates against Platonism: “the continuous re-foundations and the constant re-organization of the global structure of mathematics testify to its non-systematic and non-universal global structure. … Far from being stable and universal, our mathematics is a fluttering butterfly, which follows the fancies of us, inconstant creatures. Its theorems are solid, of course; but selecting what represents an interesting theorem is a highly subjective matter.” Just like picking an interesting book from Borges’s library, or carving a statue the way Michelangelo did.

“It is the carving out, the selection, out of a dull and undifferentiated M, of a subset which is useful to us, interesting for us, beautiful and simple in our eyes, it is, in other words, something strictly related to what we are, that makes up what we call mathematics.”

So here is where I stand now on the matter: the joints efforts of Smolin and Rovelli amount to a hook and an uppercut punch to mathematical Platonism. It isn’t a knockout blow, but it’s pretty close. Then again, I changed my mind on this in the past. It may happen again.

277 thoughts on “One more on mathematical Platonism

  1. Neil Rickert

    Robin: Does the fictionalist say that the new facts brought about by adding a new axiom to an axiomatic system were true before anyone thought of the new axiom?

    I won’t claim to speak for everyone.

    For myself, I see such facts as relative to the assumed axioms. So if we change the axioms, we change those relative facts. In mathematics, I do not think in terms of absolute facts.

    So the new facts are an implication of the new axiom. If you want to express that in a timeless way, you could say that the new facts were an implication of the new axiom even before anybody thought of that axiom.

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  2. Alan White

    Thanks again Massimo for a post that makes my head hurt.

    Platonism and opposing views are as you say ontological, but stating positions on such stuff is basically a function of meaning or semantics. How are semantics possible? I suspect that question is quite a way above my pay grade, but I know that has to be fundamental to this inquiry. Semantics evolved from basic remembered associations of sounds to actions no doubt, but somewhere crossed into representations of the world as binary propositional–meanings true or false through logical operations of at least denial and conjunction. That binary representation then crossed over into quantification across properties, where the number of individuals thus described (as classes of one or more) meets geometrical descriptions of groups of individuals as classes logically included or intersected. But then counting individuals and relating them to geometrically-describable instances are basic to a language competent to even state possible ontologies about numbers and shapes. So in a grounding way counting and shapes are essential to talking about how numbers and shapes might exist. Not exactly a defense of Platonism, but maybe a defense of how numbers and shapes are somehow assumed to talk meaningfully about the reality of numbers and shapes.

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  3. davidlduffy

    Dear Neil Rickert

    “I don’t think our notion of truth extends far enough to be able to ask whether platonism is true”

    Hartry Field, the fictionalist, has it that “the difference between ‘4 is even’ and ‘5 is even’ is analogous to the difference between ‘Oliver Twist grew up in London’ and ‘Oliver Twist grew up in L.A.’”. Would you go that far? If a monkey gets upset because I got three peanuts and he got one, have we just fallen for the same story that two each is symmetrical and fair? I guess I think it’s a lot of work justifying why mathematics is effective in the real world if it is fictional, as compared to the kind of fiction we most often encounter ie lies.

    All the Iphones I see are pretty similar to one another because they all derive from an abstract design. Again, I don’t see it as very useful to say that my ability to use any one of these is relying on a fictional representation. I’m all for deflation and reductionism as far as it can go, but I just don’t see much difference in fictional quality between my notion of the number 4, my notion of truth, and my notion of what I’m having for dinner tonight.

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  4. Robin Herbert

    Hi Neil,

    A mathematical fact is always about it’s axioms, as far as I know. Some people in refutation of Platonism say that ‘1+1=2’ might be true or false depending upon the axioms.

    But that is exactly the same as saying ‘1+1=2’ might be true or false depending upon the meaning you assign to those symbols. No one is saying ‘1+1=2’ is true irrespective of the meaning you apply to those symbols. Rather ‘1+1=2’ is true given a particular meaning applied to those symbols.

    That is just like any statement. It is like saying that a statement about the Moon is true or false depending on whether by ‘the Moon’ you mean the large natural satellite orbiting the Earth or some body in orbit of Jupiter.

    If you want to express that in a timeless way, you could say that the new facts were an implication of the new axiom even before anybody thought of that axiom.

    Again, no mathematical fact ever says that such-and-such is true irrespective of the axioms used. The phrase ‘were an an implication of the new axiom’ is just a tautology.

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  5. Björn Carlsten

    Just to repeat my question from a few pages ago, is it at all possible to do without the concept of discreteness in mathematical representations? My point was that even our mathematics that deals with continuity necessarily involves discreteness in its representation; the equations have distinct and separable terms, matrices have separate entries, and so on. So we humans cannot do without discreteness in math, even if we limit ourselves to descriptions of continuities. So, Rovelli’s hypothetical Jovians, who never perceive discreteness in their world—would they not need discreteness in their math as well? Is there some kind of existence proof that that kind of math is possible? If not, I don’t know why the claim should be accepted that it’s possible to have mathematics without the concept of discreteness (from which natural numbers might be derived).

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  6. Robin Herbert

    Hi Bjorn

    “Is there some kind of existence proof that that kind of math is possible?”

    I was also skeptical that it was even possible. It seems to me that any mind that could differentiate could count.

    On the other hand I wanted to give the case its best chance and also it is a thought experiment which has been around for a long time.

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  7. Markk

    A fascinating topic. Thinking out loud for a moment:

    To my mind, the central question here is not do all mathematics exist somehow, but rather why is it that any mathematics at all is so useful in describing the world around us.

    Or more to the point: why is it that this practice of describing the world with numbers so successful? The unreasonable effectiveness of mathematics.

    I see no need for a full-fledged mathematical Platonism. In whatever sense mathematics exists, it exists in the world around us. It is because the physical world is so regular that there are mathematical truths for us to “discover”. It is because we are not omnipotent that we “invent” them and sometimes get it wrong.

    One day we shall have to thank Nature for being so kind as to adapt herself to our methods.

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  8. Markk

    By the way, do my eyes deceive me or does Dan agree with Coel on this one? If I hadn’t discovered this, I would have to invent it.

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  9. Disagreeable Me (@Disagreeable_I)

    Hi Bjorn,

    Just to repeat my question from a few pages ago, is it at all possible to do without the concept of discreteness in mathematical representations?

    Maybe. Perhaps the representations themselves could be analogue. I don’t know. Your criticism is compelling. However, as I siad, Rovelli only discusses Jovians and his other examples to argue against any claim that some mathematics is objectively and inherently more interesting or natural than other mathematics. I think most platonists would be happy to concede that point, so it’s a non-issue.

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  10. Paul Braterman

    I found the chess analogy liberating. It is a Timeless Truth that, given the axioms of arithmetic, such-and-such a statement is a theorem. But then, it is a Timeless Truth that, given the axioms of chess, such-and-such a position is a checkmate. What follows is, not that I should stand in greater awe of chess, but that I should stand in less awe of Timeless Truths.

    I can now reread this discussion without falling over my own feet.

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  11. Bunsen Burner

    DM:

    ‘Based on the fact that none of this has anything to do with the reasons I am a platonist.’

    This is what I find bizarre. How do you know? How can you possibly have figured out what the ontological status of mathematical objects be by ignoring the last 100 years of mathematics and philosophy exactly on this issue?

    ‘my point being it is not unreasonable to have opinions on a domain’

    Having an opinion is one thing. Thinking you have reasons for that opinion is another. It’s obvious to me that when you try to reason about mathematics that you have a very limited understanding. Yet this does not deter you. I am curious as to why.

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  12. Robin Herbert

    There may be sense in ignoring the last 100 years of people failing to come to a conclusion about something. Especially the first 15 years of the last 100 years on this case.

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  13. brodix

    It seems mathematical platonism is wrapped up in determinism. That the same causes invariably lead to the same effects, thus the effects must pre-exist their causes in some timeless space. Which completely overlooks the necessity of the processing that is time, leading from cause to effect. Operations in math are symbols for the process of time, aka verbs. If you don’t add the ones together, you don’t have two. Any more than if you don’t add the ingredients of a cake together, you don’t have a cake.
    Yes, there are lots of mathematical tools that resemble one another, but if the processes don’t exist, neither do the regularities they express.
    That is why only the past has been determined.

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  14. Disagreeable Me (@Disagreeable_I)

    Hi Bunsen Burner,

    This is what I find bizarre. How do you know? How can you possibly have figured out what the ontological status of mathematical objects be by ignoring the last 100 years of mathematics and philosophy exactly on this issue?

    I haven’t ignored the last 100 years of mathematics and philosophy exactly on the issue of the ontological status of mathematical objects. I’m just not conversant in every issue in mathematics, e.g. the continuum hypothesis. Same as Massimo, Dan, and plenty of other people who have opinions and reasons for those opinions. If you think these issues in advanced mathematics are crucial to the ontological status of mathematical objects, then continue to make that case and explain why.

    It’s obvious to me that when you try to reason about mathematics that you have a very limited understanding.

    There’s no need for it to be obvious to you. I’ve admitted as much, repeatedly. Yes. It is very limited, compared to you, and compared to David Duffy’s, etc. Probably comparable to Massimo and Dan, and probably more than most people. But I don’t accept that you need to have an advanced understanding of mathematics to have reasons for an opinion on the ontological status of mathematical objects. As Massimo said, this is a metaphysical question, not a mathematical one. There are mathematical objects I understand well enough, I and I deem them to exist. There are mathematical objects and paradoxes and puzzles I don’t understand, and I can only comment on them tentatively.

    I would also make the point that expertise is relative. If I am ignorant of the past 100 years of developments in this subject, then you yourself are also relatively ignorant, e.g. of the next 100 years of mathematics and philosophy on this subject, and this ignorance doesn’t stop you from having reasons for your opinion any more than my ignorance stops me from having reasons for mine.

    If it were the case that there was a consensus on the ontology of mathematical objects among mathematical experts, then you might have a point that my lack of expertise disqualifies me from feeling any sense of justification in disagreeing with that consensus. But there is no such consensus, which suggests to me that the real issues in ontology of mathematics are orthogonal to the details of advanced mathematical concepts such as the continuum hypothesis.

    Anyway, David Duffy answered your point about the continuum hypothesis, so why don’t you take him up and I’ll be happy to bow out and interested to see how the discussion between you two experts (relative to me at least) goes.

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  15. Disagreeable Me (@Disagreeable_I)

    Hi Neil Rickert,

    There’s are reason people bring this up. For it is a place where fictionalists and platonists have clearly different views. The platonist typically says that there’s a fact of the matter about CH, and if we cannot prove it then we need a better system of axioms.

    Well, as per the paper David Duffy linked to, there are “universe” platonists who think there is one true foundation of mathematics, one true set of axioms, and “multiverse” platonists (also called plenitudinous platonists or full-blooded platonists) who admit all axiomatic systems. A universe platonist might believe there is a fact of the matter, but a multiverse platonist would just say the facts are different in different axiomatic systems and there is no correct answer. I myself am a multiverse platonist.

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  16. Coel

    Hi Paul,

    But then, it is a Timeless Truth that, given the axioms of chess, such-and-such a position is a checkmate. What follows is, not that I should stand in greater awe of chess, but that I should stand in less awe of Timeless Truths.

    Agreed. It is also a timeless truth that in the book Moby Dick Captain Ahab drowns. And this would have been true 10,000 years before anyone had written any such book.

    But why does maths feel a bit different? Perhaps because, whereas a novelist has near-limitless scope to create novels (even without invoking any sci-fi or anything that could not happen in our world), we actually have very limited scope in the basic axioms of maths, if we want a maths that models real-world behaviour (which of course we do).

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  17. Bunsen Burner

    DM:

    I bought up some issues with platonism to contribute to this discussion because they are just the ones I remember getting discussed in philosophy of mathematics classes. The continuum hypothesis is just an example that I thought was arguably more accessible to this forum then the more esoteric alternatives. As Rovelli himself wrote: ‘… what is it reasonable to expect M to contain?’ I was pointing out that object platonism does commit people to some very strange ontologies.

    ‘ If I am ignorant of the past 100 years of developments in this subject, then you yourself are also relatively ignorant, e.g. of the next 100 years of mathematics and philosophy on this subject, and this ignorance doesn’t stop you from having reasons for your opinion any more than my ignorance stops me from having reasons for mine.’

    This is not an argument I have heard before. Does it have a name? It seem to me you are saying that that since we can’t know the future, then we are all equally ignorant, no matter how much we bother to learn about a subject. You can’t honestly believe this?

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  18. Robin Herbert

    If there were any mathematical facts about Captain Ahab drowning the way there are mathematical facts about chess then they would have been true 10,000 years ago irrespective of whether anyone wrote the book, the way that the mathematical facts about chess were true before the gsme was invented.

    The reason there are no mathematical facts abiut Ahab drowning is that it doesn’t represent a set of rules.

    It feels different because it is different.

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  19. Robin Herbert

    If mathematics is fiction then how come they found in 1931 that it was literally impossible for them to make the story come out the way they wanted it to come out?

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  20. Paul Braterman

    Hi Coel,

    A rare pleasure to find myself in at least partial agreement with you. Mathematical structures are interesting, in part, not because they embody timeless truths, but because they model structures in the world (and in any possible world that showed regularities).

    How then should we regard the proof that, given the axioms of number theory, there is no highest prime number? I find that result extremely interesting, and think that any creatures capable of understanding it would do so too. And yet it does not correspond to any fact about the material world.

    Perhaps my earlier problem lay in confusing an emotional resonance, which may well be shared by all sufficiently intelligent sentience beings, with a special kind of metaphysical status. I think a lot of people do that in a lot of contexts.

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  21. Disagreeable Me (@Disagreeable_I)

    Hi Bunsen Burner,

    I bought up some issues with platonism to contribute to this discussion because they are just the ones I remember getting discussed in philosophy of mathematics classes.

    And I’m glad you did. I find this stuff fascinating. I wish I had had the benefit of philosophy of mathematics classes, but I didn’t.

    So, just to be clear: I have absolutely no problem with you bringing this stuff up, and I have no problem with your claim that these issues are enough to refute platonism. I just disagree that not knowing about these issues means that all the reasons I have for platonism are suddenly invalidated, especially as the issues you raise seem not to have persuaded all experts.

    I’m even happy to engage with you on these issues, but if that’s what you want you will have to be patient, because I’m relatively clueless (but I’m not stupid — I doubt that there is any real block to me grasping the issues you want to raise).

    This is not an argument I have heard before. Does it have a name? It seem to me you are saying that that since we can’t know the future, then we are all equally ignorant,

    No, I’m just saying that there is no magic threshold beyond which having reasons for opinions are justified. You can hold yourself up as more informed than me and ask me how dare I think I have reasons for my opinions, but someone more informed than you could do the same to you. If you encountered someone from the future with all this advanced knowledge who asked how you could dare to think you have reasons for your opinion on platonism when you don’t know anything about Ziegfield’s Field-Manifold Conjecture, would you immediately be cowed into agnosticism? No, of course not. All the reasons for your opinions would remain, and you would hold to those opinions, though of course you would be interested to know about and discuss these further developments.

    That’s not to say there isn’t a continuum — obviously you are more an authority on the facts of the matter than I am. Ideally you would be discussing this stuff with someone as informed as yourself, which is why it would be better for David Duffy to answer your issues.

    However, I personally am fascinated by the views of people who disagree with me, and I want to understand these views. There’s nothing I value more than a generous interlocutor who will let me pick apart their worldview with probing questions just to see how the view works for them. I’m offering myself as such an interlocutor. If you’re really interested in how a platonist would process the issues you raise, then I’ll try to answer. I’m not the best person you could ask, but I’m here and I’m available. Perhaps when I come to better understand your point I will be convinced that platonism is false. Alternatively I will be able to offer a better account of how they can be reconciled with platonism. Either way we’ve both learned something about how the views of the other hang together.

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  22. Bunsen Burner

    DM:

    ‘You can hold yourself up as more informed than me and ask me how dare I think I have reasons for my opinions, but someone more informed than you could do the same to you’

    That’s not what I was saying. Reasons are not the sort of things that any grouping of words can be said to be a reason. You can have an opinion on P vs NP, but you can’t just decide to give reasons for that opinion that exclude everything that mathematicians have learnt about the problem. Judging their views irrelevant because they haven’t come up with the answer.

    ‘ If you’re really interested in how a platonist would process the issues you raise, then I’ll try to answer’

    Dude, I spent years in the academy arguing with platonists. Mostly mathematics professors. I don’t know why you think you are a representative platonist, but you are as unlike as the guys I knew as it’s possible to get.

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  23. Bunsen Burner

    Coel:

    ‘we actually have very limited scope in the basic axioms of maths, if we want a maths that models real-world behaviour’

    I don’t know what you think the basic axioms of maths are, but the vast majority of maths does not model the real world. Or any world, barring some radical platonist views. Even in the parts we use to model physics we have impose extra structure (integrability, measurebility,etc) to make it useful for dealing with real world problems.

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  24. Robin Herbert

    Hi Paul

    “And yet it does not correspond to any fact about the material world.”

    But it does. It corresponds to the fact that, given the definition of natural numbers and prime numbers there is no highest prime number. I am not sure why that is any different from any other kind of fact. But it is timeless and independent of any particular set of physical laws in that it can’t be false.

    I know some people say that it can be true if you change the axioms. If you can make it false. But that doesn’t make sense for the reasons I have said.

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  25. Disagreeable Me (@Disagreeable_I)

    Hi Bunsen Burner,

    Judging their views irrelevant because they haven’t come up with the answer.

    I’m not judging your views irrelevant. I’m interested in your views. But even if you have very good reasons for rejecting platonism which I don’t understand, there are reasons for accepting platonism which I do understand.

    I don’t know why you think you are a representative platonist

    Only because I tend to agree with what platonists say (at least multiverse platonists). As far as I can see, the experts in platonism are saying the same kind of thing I am saying except with more sophistication and with a deeper understanding of the field, just as expert evolutionary biologists have more or less the same broad understanding of evolution as I do except with more nuance and sophistication. So I’m a representative (multiverse) platonist in the same way that I am a representative evolutionist.

    but you are as unlike as the guys I knew as it’s possible to get.

    Were the platonists you debated with “mulitverse” platonists or “universe” platonists? Wouldn’t “mulitverse” platonists have had a ready answer you your question about the CH? If you only talked to universe platonists, then I offer myself as an example of a multiverse platonist.

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  26. Bunsen Burner

    DM:

    ‘I’m not judging your views irrelevant’

    I wasn’t talking abut my views.

    ‘Were the platonists you debated with “mulitverse” platonists or “universe” platonists? ‘

    None of them would have considered that question meaningful

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