Mathematical Platonism is one of those things I changed my mind about over time. And, of course, I may change it again. I began with curiosity and at least partial assent, convinced that mathematics is, indeed, uncannily weird. Too weird for there not to be some substance to the idea that mathematical truths are not invented by mathematicians, but rather “discovered,” in a way analogous to how astronomers discover planets (though, obviously, not literally: no telescope will ever show you the Pythagorean theorem…).
Here is an article I wrote for Philosophy Now back in 2011 where I sympathize with the Platonists. But by 2013 I strongly rejected the idea as presented by mathematician Max Tegmark (see this post at Rationally Speaking), and in 2015 I finally found what I still consider a good, non-Platonist, explanation of the weirdness of mathematics, as proposed by physicist Lee Smolin and summarized in this essay in Scientia Salon. Two more years have passed, so I guess it’s time to revisit the issue once more.
This time the springboard is provided by a critical paper by theoretical physicist Carlo Rovelli, entitled “Michelangelo’s stone: an argument against Platonism in mathematics,” published in the European Journal for Philosophy of Science (available for free here). Let’s take a look.
Rovelli asks whether there is a Platonic world M of mathematical facts, and, if so, what M may contain, precisely. In his paper he submits that if M is too large, it is uninteresting (in a sense to be explained in a minute), and if it is smaller and interesting, then it is not independent of us. Both alternatives — he says — challenge mathematical Platonism. He suggests that the universality of human mathematics may be a prejudice and illustrates contingent aspects of classical geometry, arithmetic and linear algebra, using them to make the case that what we call mathematics is, in fact, always contingent.
Rovelli begins by defining mathematical Platonism as “the view that mathematical reality exists by itself, independently from our own intellectual activities,” and acknowledges that it is a position accepted by some leading mathematicians, and so not to be taken lightly. He then introduces the idea of a mathematical world M of which he sets out to investigate the major characteristics.
First off, then, what does M contain? “Certainly M includes all the beautiful mathematical objects that mathematicians have studied so far. This is its primary purpose. It includes the real numbers, Lie groups, prime numbers and so on. It includes Cantor’s infinities, with the proof that they are ‘more’ than the integers, in the sense defined by Cantor, and both possible extensions of arithmetic: the one where there are infinities larger than the integers and smaller than the reals, and the one where there aren’t. It contains the games of game theory, and the topos of topos theory. It contains lots of stuff.”
But of course M — for a Platonist — also contains all the mathematical objects that mathematicians haven’t discovered yet. Rovelli says that M must contain the ensemble of all non-contradictory choices of axioms. “But something starts to be disturbing. The resulting M is big, extremely big: it contains too much junk. The large majority of coherent sets of axioms are totally irrelevant.” Ah, but irrelevant to what, and according to whom?
Here is where Rovelli introduces the metaphor that gives the title to his paper:
“During the Italian Renaissance, Michelangelo Buonarroti, one of the greatest artists of all times, said that a good sculptor does not create a statue: he simply ‘takes it out’ from the block of stone where the statue already lay hidden. A statue is already there, in its block of stone. The artists must simply expose it, carving away the redundant stone. The artist does not ‘create’ the statue: he ‘finds’ it.”
Sounds familiar? That’s pretty much what mathematical Platonists (or, really, Platonists of any stripe) claim. Rovelli acknowledges that, in a trivial sense, Buonarroti was right, since the statue is made of a subset of the grains composing the original block of stone. The problem is that there is an infinite number of such subsets, and that it is the artist that — arbitrarily — picks the subset that will then become the finished statue.
Here is an example of a Michelangelo statue, the horned Moses, that I photographed in the Church of St. Peter in Chain in Rome:

Rovelli goes on to say that one can tell the same story about the ensemble of all possible books, as recounted in the beautiful story by Jorge Luis Borges, The Library of Babel.
“Like Michelangelo’s stone, Borges’s library is void of any interest: it has no content, because the value is in the choice, not in the totality of the alternatives.”
Rovelli, intriguingly, goes further and says (correctly, I think) that science itself could be regarded in the same fashion, as the denotation of a subset of all of philosopher David Lewis’s possible worlds (see modal logic).
“What we call mathematics is an infinitesimal subset of the huge world
defined above: it is the tiny subset which is of interest for us. Mathematics is about studying the ‘interesting’ structures. So, the problem becomes: what does ‘interesting’ mean?”
The next step in Rovelli’s paper is to highlight the fact that interest, so to speak, is in the eye of the interested: “What is it that makes certain sets of axioms defining certain mathematical objects, and certain theorems, interesting? There are different possible answer to this question, but they all make explicit or implicit reference to features of ourselves, our mind, our contingent environment, or the physical structure our world happens to have.”
But, the Platonist will object, we actually expect any intelligent life form in the universe to arrive at the same mathematical truths that we have discovered. Well, do we? As a way to undermine this claim, Rovelli presents a number of examples in which what appears to be universal mathematics turns out, in fact, to be contingent on human peculiarities or on the human point of view. His case studies include: the geometry of a sphere, linear algebra, and the idea of natural numbers. All three are worked out in some detail, but I will pick just the latter for illustration.
“Natural numbers seem very natural indeed. There is evidence that the brain is pre-wired to be able to count, and do elementary arithmetic with small numbers. Why so? Because our world appears to be naturally organized in terms of things that can be counted. But is this a feature of reality at large, of any possible world, or is it just a special feature of this little corner of the universe we inhabit and perceive?”
The latter, argues Rovelli. First off, “the notion of individual ‘object’ is notoriously slippery, and objects need to have rare and peculiar properties in order to be countable. How many clouds are there in the sky? How many mountains in the Alps? How many coves along the coast of England? How many waves in a lake?How many clods in my garden? These are all ill-defined questions.”
Then Rovelli introduces a thought experiment that directly challenges the Platonist view:
“Imagine some form of intelligence evolved on Jupiter, or a planet similar to Jupiter. Jupiter is fluid, not solid. This does not prevent it from developing complex structures: fluids develop complex structures, as their chemical composition, state of motion, and so on, can change continuously from point to point and from time to time, and their dynamics is governed by rich nonlinear equations.”
The problem, however, is that there is nothing to count in a fluid environment, so our hypothetical Jovians will be highly unlikely to “discover” the natural numbers.
“The math needed by this fluid intelligence would presumably include some sort of geometry, real numbers, field theory, differential equations…, all this could develop using only geometry, without ever considering this funny operation which is enumerating individual things one by one. The notion of ‘one thing,’ or ‘one object,’ the notions themselves of unit and identity, are useful for us living in an environment where there happen to be stones, gazelles, trees, and friends that can be counted. The fluid intelligence diffused over the Jupiter-like planet, could have developed mathematics without ever thinking about natural numbers. These would not be of interest for her.”
So we may have a concept of integers because of the peculiarities of the Terran environment. Moreover, continues Rovelli, “modern physics is intriguingly ambiguous about countable entities. On the one hand, a major discovery of the XX century has been that at the elementary level nature is entirely described by field theory. Fields vary continuously in space and time. There is little to count, in the field picture of the world. On the other hand, quantum mechanics has injected a robust dose of discreteness in fundamental physics: because of quantum theory, fields have particle-like properties and particles are quintessentially countable objects.” So maybe the Jovian intelligence will arrive at the concept of integers, but only after having discovered quantum mechanics! As Rovelli puts it, “what moderns physics says about what is countable in the world has no bearing on the universality of mathematics: at most it points out which parts of M are interesting because they happen to describe this world.”
In the concluding part of his paper Rovelli writes: “Why has mathematics developed at first, and for such a long time, along two parallel lines: geometry and arithmetic? The answer begins to clarify: because these two branches of mathematics are of value for creatures like us, who instinctively count friends, enemies and sheep, and who need to measure, approximately, a nearly flat earth in a nearly flat region of physical space.”
Even the history of mathematics as a field of inquiry militates against Platonism: “the continuous re-foundations and the constant re-organization of the global structure of mathematics testify to its non-systematic and non-universal global structure. … Far from being stable and universal, our mathematics is a fluttering butterfly, which follows the fancies of us, inconstant creatures. Its theorems are solid, of course; but selecting what represents an interesting theorem is a highly subjective matter.” Just like picking an interesting book from Borges’s library, or carving a statue the way Michelangelo did.
“It is the carving out, the selection, out of a dull and undifferentiated M, of a subset which is useful to us, interesting for us, beautiful and simple in our eyes, it is, in other words, something strictly related to what we are, that makes up what we call mathematics.”
So here is where I stand now on the matter: the joints efforts of Smolin and Rovelli amount to a hook and an uppercut punch to mathematical Platonism. It isn’t a knockout blow, but it’s pretty close. Then again, I changed my mind on this in the past. It may happen again.

Hi Paul,
If the axioms that give us counting numbers map to real-world behaviour, and if the theorems are logically implied by those axioms, then the whole system can still be regarded as relating to or being “about” the real world, even if there is no directly observable consequence.
Hi Bunsen,
I’d suggest that nearly all mathematical systems are adopted because they model the real world. Though the conceptual landscape is then much wider than the narrowly useful stuff.
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Balaguer (Fictionalism, Theft, and the Story of Mathematics) gives a potential attack on some flavors of fictionalism: “In particular, it seems that objective mathematical correctness can outstrip currently accepted axioms. For instance, it could turn out that mathematicians are going to discover an objectively correct answer to the question of whether the continuum hypothesis (CH) is true or false…some mathematician M found a new set-theoretic axiom candidate A that was accepted by mathematicians as an intuitively obvious claim about sets, and ZF+A entails CH…The right thing to say would be that CH had been correct all along and that M came along and discovered this. But Field cannot say this”. We might ask what objectively correct means in this situation, I would think.
Just like some finitists, I guess one can have a fictionalist-like view that mathematical objects are placeholders for processes which might or might not be actually realizable in the lifetime of our universe if we carried them out concretely. Selecting objects and putting them into collections is the example Kitcher uses – we don’t have to actually do it to draw rational conclusions about the properties of the act. Carraro and Martino had an article with the groovy title “To Be is to Be the Object of a Possible Act of Choice” (it has infinite numbers of notional agents to carry out tasks we request). I think such possible acts of choice have a certain reality, and are timeless in as much as we can foresee repeating them endlessly or at any time in the future.
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Coel,
“But why does maths feel a bit different? Perhaps because, whereas a novelist has near-limitless scope to create novels”
Yes, but that’s no comfort to the Platonist. That’s why I brought up chess, not Moby Dick. Moby Dick is fiction, while chess falls into the third category considered by Smolin, of things that are invented by human minds, yet have objective properties that can be rigorously described by logic and math.
“I’d suggest that nearly all mathematical systems are adopted because they model the real world.”
With due respect, Coel, plenty of people who know a lot of mathematics have pointed out to you that this is simply, and straightforwardly, false.
Robin,
“If mathematics is fiction then how come they found in 1931 that it was literally impossible for them to make the story come out the way they wanted it to come out?”
It’s not fiction in the sense of Moby Dick, it is in the sense of the game of chess.
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Hi Bunsen Burner
That seems odd to me. It’s meaningful to plenty of other distinguished platonists. I didn’t make this stuff up.
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/philosophy-mathematics/#PlePla
It’s also referenced in the link David Duffy gave you, which I’ll give again:
Are these ideas unfamiliar to you?
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Hi Massimo,
Then can you name some widely used sets of mathematical axioms that have no real-world applications at all?
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Hey Bunsen,
Just to emphasise something.
I find what you’re saying very interesting. I would like to learn more. I’m not, as you seem to think, uninterested and happy to remain ignorant. If there’s something in what you’re saying that is a serious problem for platonism, I want to understand it.
Of course it’s not your duty to educate me, so if you can point me in the direction of an argument for why plenitudinous platonism does not completely defuse your CH argument as some platonists seem to think it does, then I will eagerly read it.
Otherwise, if you can’t find a resource, I’d appreciate it if you could explain.
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Hi Coel,
Well, they probably wouldn’t be widely used if they were completely useless. That may be too high a bar.
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Hi Coel,
I am no mathematician, but once I’ve read an article about ‘weird’ ideas in math, and Banach-Tarski paradox seems to have no real world application (I think it might violate some physics also).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banach%E2%80%93Tarski_paradox
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Hi Fernando,
Banach-Tarski comes from the ZF axioms plus the Axiom of Choice, when applied to infinite sets. The ZF axioms and set theory in general do have a lot of useful applications, and the ZF axioms do seem to be “real world true”. The Axiom of Choice is also “real world true” applied to finite sets, but then gives weird results such as Banach-Tarski when applied to infinite sets. Further, this use of the Axiom of Choice has been widely debated in mathematics precisely because it gives a result that is not real-world true.
But this seems to just reinforce the point that in general (maybe not in every particular) the axiom sets of maths do have real-world utility. (Of course those axiom sets then generate very large “edifices” that mathematicians then explore, and only a subset of that will be directly applicable to the world.)
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Hello Coel,
I do agree with your general point (and also Massimo’s and Smolin’s). And thanks for the explanation.
I thought about bringing this paradox because it seemed to me to be a mathematical ‘object’ that had no counterpart in real world. Also, I think the existence of these kind of mathematical structures (like Banach Tarski paradox) is a problem for those that defend that natural laws are given by mathematical structures (and not the contrary, as I think about it).
Labnut, if I understood correctly defended this position:
“My view of Platonism is that mathematical structures are instantiated as laws of nature.”
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Coel:
‘I’d suggest that nearly all mathematical systems are adopted because they model the real world.’
What a strange reply. What real world problems do you think the mathematicians working on the Langlands Programme or Univalent Foundations trying to solve?
‘Then can you name some widely used sets of mathematical axioms that have no real-world applications at all?’
It’s not about whether mathematical axioms have real world applications or not. It’s the fact that those real world applications are an infinitesimal subset of the consequences of those axioms. Group theory has applications in physics, but the vast majority of groups and research in group theory has nothing to do with these applications.
Though I would say you would find it hard to find real world applications in much of the work on large cardinals.
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DM:
‘That seems odd to me. It’s meaningful to plenty of other distinguished platonists. I didn’t make this stuff up.’
You are conflating the categories used by philosophers as a shorthand to aggregate certain ideas, and a very technical debate between Hamkins and Woodin, to adopt a vocabulary that doesn’t actually exist when real human beings discuss these issues among themselves.
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Coel,
“we actually have very limited scope in the basic axioms of maths, if we want a maths that models real-world behaviour (which of course we do).”
Yes, it is hog-tied to reality 🙂
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Hi Bunsen Burner,
Are you saying that nobody actually believes that different axiomatic systems can all coexist equally in the mathematical world, or are you saying that nobody actually believes that there is a single ultimate axiomatic system?
If you’re saying the issue never came up in your discussions with platonist professors, then fair enough. But it’s come up in this discussion precisely because my understanding is that this approach (my approach) defeats your CH objection (as SEP notes specifically).
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Hi Bunsen,
I agree with that latter statement (and indeed both of my previous comments said as much). But I do think that the former statement, that the axiom systems adopted are generally ones that have real-world utility and are “real-world true” is also important. Compare:
1) Real-world behaviour => modeled by maths => distilled into axioms. Those axioms then have vastly wider implications and possible consequences than the subset of maths that is directly useful and applicable to the world.
2) Real-world behaviour => modeled by physics => distilled into “laws of physics”. Those laws of physics then imply a vastly wider set of possible consequences than the subset that is physically instantiated (at least within the observable universe).
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DM:
‘Are you saying that nobody actually believes that different axiomatic…’
I am saying I never met anyone strutting around calling themselves a multiverse this or an ultimate that. Most had complex, nuanced views and the arguments centered around the details of those views.
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PS:
None; I don’t think they’re trying to solve real-world problems. But then nor was Reimann when he developed Reimannian geometry, yet it later had real-world applications.
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Hi Bunsen Burner,
Why strutting? You can be a plenitudinous platonist and have nuanced views. Plenitudinous platonism is a nuanced view, I would say.
Anyway, my point was that this approach seems to defeat the CH objection. I then mangled my detailed exposition of why this was quite badly and I’m sorry for that. I’d like to revisit that question now that I’ve corrected some of my misunderstanding and refreshed my memory as to what the CH is about.
Does plenitudinous platonism answer the CH objection (as SEP notes) or not?
You say there has to be a fact of the matter on ZFC. Do you care to explain why?
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Coel:
I have admit I am a bit stumped as to exactly what your argument is. The path
Real-world behaviour => modeled by maths => distilled into axioms
is something of a Whig history of mathematics. Many mathematical systems have evolved with no input from physics (or real world behaviour), and only later were applications discovered.
What exactly do you think needs to be demonstrated to contradict your viewpoint?
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Bunsen,
I’ve been through this with Coel a few times so I think I can summarise the issues.
Coel’s overriding interest is to ground all human knowledge and rationality in the empirical and to deny the possibility of any truth being truly a priori.
On mathematics, he says that all mathematics can ultimately be shown to be distilled and extrapolated from initial real world observations.
It’s not plausible that any human mathematician could be shown to be doing mathematics which has not been influenced in any way by real world observations. In the limit, Coel will say that human psychology has been influenced by the real world throughout our history and evolution, so everything we do is ultimately empirical.
He goes so far as to say that the basic laws of logic and deductive reasoning are contingent and only happen to apply in this universe because of how this universe is set up. He is open to the idea that there might be different physical universes where logic works entirely differently (I personally violently disagree with this last bit).
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Coel,
Precisely what Bunsen said. The overwhelming majority of mathematicians work on things that have nothing at all to do with the real world. Same for logicians. The reason, in both case, is the same: the mathematical (M) and logical (L) universe of possibilities is vastly larger than the physical (P) one. That straightforward observation also explains the so-called “unreasonable” effectiveness of mathematics: since (P) is a subset of (M)(L), then both (M) and (L) have to have countless applications to (P). But they have many more countless non-applications.
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Hi Bunsen,
What would contradict me is widespread use of axiom systems that are blatantly inconsistent with real-world behaviour.
(That’s different from exploring mathematical edifices based on axioms that are consistent with real-world behaviour, even though those edifices are not necessarily real-world applicable; in the same way that plenty of possibilities that are compatible with the laws of physics are not necessarily instantiated.)
The most widely known axiom systems are generally adopted because of their real-world correspondence (for example, Euclid’s axioms, or Peano’s axioms from counting numbers, or ZF axioms; yes there are exceptions such as the Axiom of Choice applied to infinite sets, and maybe people who know mathematics better than I do can point to others).
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Hi Massimo,
That is something that I’ve stated myself three times, and is fully consistent with my claims.
I do not accept that if the axioms they are working with correspond to the real world then the edifices deriving tautologically from those axioms “have nothing at all to do with the real world”.
In the same way, if one conceptualised some possibility that was fully consistent with the laws of physics but not actually instantiated, I would not agree that it “had nothing at all to do with the real world”. It would indeed have something to do with the real world.
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Coel, It is trivial that a lot of mathematical thought goes into exporing axiom systems that have real world applications, because we want to understand the world and do things in it. That is a statement about the sociology of mathematics, not about its logical status.
Regarding, say, irrational numbers or No Highest Prime (to stick with mathematics known to Euclid), we agree that these follow from the axioms of arithmetic, and that arithmetic describes the real world, but for me, that is not enough to make them about the real world. We agree on the facts, so we must be disagreeing about language; specifically, when a theorem in M can usefully be said to be about P.
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Coel:
‘What would contradict me is widespread use of axiom systems that are blatantly inconsistent with real-world behaviour.’
I don’t know if this is a fair summation but it seems to me that something like a category error is going on here. Axiom systems are just not the type of thing that is consistent or inconsistent with ‘the real world’. An axiom system may lend itself to the study of structures that when suitably interpreted allow you to represent things in the world such as electrons or voter preferences. If I showed you Tarski’s axiomatisation of Euclidean geometry in purely symbolic notation I doubt you would realise that it had anything to do with points, lines and all that.
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Isn’t the biggest problem confusing mathematics as a mere descriptor of reality with reality itself? If I use a metaphor to describe something, it doesn’t mean the metaphor is literally that something.
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Hi Michael,
Nobody is simply confusing reality with a descriptor of reality. The people who claim the universe is literally and only a mathematical object (myself included) are aware that this is a radical claim.
Like you, I am perfectly capable of holding in my mind the idea that the universe is a physical object and any mathematical object is just a description of that object, regarding the two as quite distinct. Unlike you, I reject that intuitive view for reasons I won’t go into here but could direct you to if you were interested.
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Massimo
I think you’re right, that the total possible forms of mathematics that we can invent will surpass the arrangements we see in the real world, but I wouldn’t go as far as saying what you did. The history of pure mathematics shows that what mathematicians used to think had nothing to do with the real world (and even took pride in it) had definite applications that were discovered later on.
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I admit I just don’t know enough to chime in confidently with my stance on the issue but great discussion so far.
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Saphsin,
“The history of pure mathematics shows that what mathematicians used to think had nothing to do with the real world (and even took pride in it) had definite applications that were discovered later on.”
Absolutely, but that neither contradicts what I said (I think), nor is it any comfort to the Platonist. If (P) is a (tiny) subset of (M), then it has to be that way.
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