Paul Feyerabend’s defense of astrology, part III

AstrologyLet’s continue this mini-series (part I, part II) focused on a fruitful exchange I’ve had recently with Ian Kidd over at Social Epistemology, which began with his publication of a paper on Paul Feyerabend’s (in)famous defense of astrology. As you might recall, Feyerabend (and, for that matter, astronomer Carl Sagan) was upset at an anti-astrology manifesto published in 1975 by arch-skeptic Paul Kurtz and co-signed by 186 scientists. Feyerabend’s charge was that the scientists had done less homework, before signing onto the public document, than the Catholic Church when it wrote its witchcraft textbook, the Malleus Maleficarum, back in 1484. Kidd, in turn, defends Feyerabend arguing that he was criticizing the scientists in question for lacking the virtue of epistemic humility and engaging in the vice of dogmatism.

As we have seen, in my first response I turned the tables on Feyerabend, accusing him of epistemic recklessness because of his use of provocative and outsized rhetoric of the type that was later claimed by supporters of pseudoscience themselves, as well as by misguided postmodernist philosophers. Instead, I suggested, the issue is one of whose authority we trust and why, and of who we think should be watching the watchmen. My thinking is that we cannot aim, as Feyerabend seemed to suggest, at a completely democratic science, meaning one whose pronouncements are accessible to the general public; but that we also don’t want to go to the other extreme, as Michael Planyi seemed to do, and just bite the bullet and anoint scientists as the new priesthood. Instead, we should increase the number of chairs at the discussion table, so to speak, by inviting people who know enough science to understand it, and yet are more detached from its agenda and objectives, people like philosophers, historians, and sociologists of science, for instance.

As I mentioned last time, Kidd was asked by the editor of Social Epistemology to write a response to my commentary, to which I was then allowed a further follow-up. (I think we are done now, but I’ll keep you posted.)

In his graceful reply to me, Kidd accepts a number of the points I raised the first time around, and goes on to make new ones, as well as to refine his own thinking on the matter. He particularly agrees with me that I) Feyerabend did identify a problem with scientific dogmatism, what nowadays is referred to as scientism; and II) that Feyerabend himself failed from a virtue epistemological perspective, given his recklessly provocative behavior.

Kidd also concedes that astrology, homeopathy, and a number of the other original examples used by Feyerabend are, in fact, pseudosciences, adding that later on Feyerabend himself got more sophisticated on this point, apparently under the influence of his soon to be wife, Grazia Borrini.

He adds: “Feyerabend would also agree with Pigliucci that astrology is indeed within the area of competence of science — for that was a key part of his frustration with the Humanist signatories: his claim is not that there is no good scientific basis for a critical refutation of astrology, but quite the opposite: there are many good objections to astrology, it’s just that the signatories did not make use of them. When Feyerabend complains that those signatories ‘neither know the subject they attack, astrology, nor those parts of their own science that undermine their attack,’ his point is that, had those signatories done the work, they could have given perfectly good scientific objections.”

And I think Feyerabend was right about this.

On the issue of the different approaches to the question of science’s authority in a democratic society, represented by Feyerabend and Michael Polanyi, Kidd writes:

“These are interesting rival conceptions of the desired grounds for the authority of science in modern democratic societies that inevitably invoke a wider constellation of issues of a social, political, and educational character — a set of rivals we can dramatize by talking of the pragmatism of Polanyi and the idealism of Feyerabend. Ought we to aspire for a society in which the authority of science is secured by the active promotion of a trust and faith in its institutions or through the critically reflective decisions of properly educated citizens? The matter is not ‘all or nothing,’ of course, since the criteria and practices of trust, criticism, and decision are complexly related. But Feyerabend definitely agreed with Pigliucci that a crucial role should be played in these debates by science studies scholars who can initiate and sustain ‘a more vibrant, more diverse conversation.'”

Notice the key phrase “science studies scholars,” different from the one I used (philosophers of science, plus historians and sociologists of science). I’ll get back to this later.

Regarding my turning the virtue epistemological table on Feyerabend, Kidd largely agrees:

“I am very sympathetic to both of [Pigliucci’s] worries: my paper begins by recording the fact that the defences of astrology and the like contributed to the charges that Feyerabend was guilty of unprofessional conduct — a wilful damaging of both his reputation and that of the philosophy of science. But Pigliucci adds to this the insight that my subsequent appeal to a normative responsibilist virtue epistemology amplifies the objection — for here we now see Feyerabend failing to practice what he preaches: how could a self-styled epistemic anarchist have seriously thought that the best way to defend the authority of science was to mount a defence of astrology and an attack on distinguished scientists, even if there was an epistemic rationale for his doing so.”

And he concludes: “the fact that Feyerabend himself fell short of virtue does not undermine the virtue-epistemic reading of his work that I offered — for my aims were to show that this usefully fills out the rationale for his criticisms of the Humanist signatories and points to an interesting conception of epistemic authority. Neither of those requires that Feyerabend was himself a paragon of virtue and I would concur with Pigliucci and other commentators that his personal professional conduct did him more harm than good.”

Fair enough. In the last part of this increasingly long mini-series, out tomorrow, I will summarize my further and final response to Kidd.

71 thoughts on “Paul Feyerabend’s defense of astrology, part III

  1. Robin Herbert

    one can equally tell that whole fields are bunk without having to know much of their actual details.

    I would defend Coel’s statement – on mere practicality if nothing else.

    I once downloaded the entire “Global Consciousness Project” dataset and reanalysed it using a single statistical “recipe”, and could show that the claimed statistical significance disappeared except in the cases where the statistical method I had used was the same as that originally used. This clearly demonstrated that they had cherry picked the beginning and end dates of the “events” they chose to include, to maximise the correlation.

    But really, the only difference between me and all those who had simply assumed that the project was bunk from the start, is that they probably did something useful with that time.

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  2. Daniel Kaufman

    Practicality does not require me to judge things I know nothing about as being bunk. It just requires me to pick some things to pursue and leave others behind. Neither of which requires me to think that the things I don’t pick are bunk.

    The statement is quite rich coming from someone with Coel’s attitude. So, I’m afraid I don’t accept your defense. Not that he needs it. I’m quite sure there’s nothing anyone could ever conceivably say here that would get him to admit he was wrong about anything,

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  3. astrodreamer

    Not at all. What sort of answer would you expect? Same way I know something about what WWll entails, what the American government entails, what being portuguese entails, what having cancer entails, etc. With respect to Leo, I could give you lists of books describing the Leo nature, of well-known people, of personal anecdotes and experiences.

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  4. Daniel Kaufman

    I guess I’m just satisfied with not being interested in certain things. I don’t know crap about astrology. I have no interest in astrology. I’m aware most scientists think astrology is rubbish. And that’s it. I don’t feel the need to develop any other attitudes towards it.

    Liked by 1 person

  5. Daniel Kaufman

    Astro: Look, knock yourself out, man. As I just indicated, I have zero interest in the subject and could care less whether it’s bunk or not. But if you’re asking, then I would say that if you want someone to take seriously the idea that “Leonine” indicates anything deeper or more than someone somewhat resembling a lion, then you’ll need a hell of a lot more than what’s in that blog post.

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  6. brodix

    The premise of this conversation brings to mind a man trying to cut his own heart out.

    What would the humanity be, without the imagination to concoct astrology? Without astrology, would there be astronomy? Could we simply observe and measure, without speculation? What would be the source of curiosity? Yes, astrology is debunked, but in the same way a chick sheds its shell.

    We live narratives of moments, much of them quasi fictional. What if our eyes insisted on only seeing what is “real?” We would be blind.

    There is a point where focus simply becomes narrow mindedness. Climbing out of the rut is hard and best left to the children.

    Liked by 3 people

  7. Robin Herbert

    That seems an odd attitude. It would imply that you thought that even if there was a power of the mind that went beyond the laws of physics, that sort of thing wouldn’t interest you.

    If there was a power of the mind that went beyond the laws of physics then I am pretty sure that I would want to know more about it.

    But the evidence is that there is not and that those who claim that there is are talking bunk.

    My interest is in what this tells us about the process of believing – why do respectable scientists in respectable universities insist on shrouding nonsense with a pantomime of scientific rigour? Are they dishonest? Are they fooling themselves? That sort of thing.

    Liked by 1 person

  8. Daniel Kaufman

    Astro: That’s the most/best I can do. Because I don’t know enough about astrology to say anything intelligent about it, all I can speak to is the form of what’s there, and not the substance. It’s fine for a blog post, but if you really want people to take it seriously — aside from those who already accept it — there will have to be a lot more by way of rigorous empirical evidence.

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  9. Daniel Kaufman

    From the fact that X interests me, it doesn’t follow that something that is related to it by implication would interest me also. Interests aren’t rational or deductive that way. They’re like all other manner of likings.

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  10. SocraticGadfly

    Astro, and I could present you a list of basic logical fallacies, starting with the file drawer and bullseye fallacies. You’d just go on to prove Markk’s comment on the first post in this series to be 119 percent true.

    But, “you Scorpios” are all stubborn, right? 🙂

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  11. Massimo Post author

    Dan,

    People have, of course, a right to believe whatever they want. But beliefs do have consequences. There is research showing that if you believe in pseudoscience X you are more likely also to believe in pseudoscience Y (though there are some interesting exceptions, mostly to do with some religious beliefs that are at odds with some pseudoscientific ones). And if Y is, say, that vaccines cause autism, or that climate change is a hoax, then I get worried. Besides, I do think of truth, as much as human beings can approach it, as a virtue and a value, so I get upset when people believe things that are obviously not true.

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  12. Robin Herbert

    From the fact that X interests me, it doesn’t follow that something that is related to it by implication would interest me also. Interests aren’t rational or deductive that way. They’re like all other manner of likings.

    I don’t know if anyone here has suggested that interests are any other way than this.

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  13. Daniel Kaufman

    Massimo, given the very loose relationship of belief to action, not to mention compartmentalization, I can’t say that people walking around believing false things worries me all that much. And regardless, there’s blessed little I can do about it anyway.

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  14. michaelfugate

    I think the train of thought interests me more than anything; it makes me try to understand and compels me look at my own beliefs. The premise that someone somewhere thought a group of stars looked like a lion while other cultures thought they looked like something else or nothing at all; Constellations are very cultural. Given all that understanding, to base a narrative on that premise is quite fascinating. It is not how I would approach something at all and helps me as a teacher to think about how I present to a diverse audience.

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  15. SocraticGadfly

    To follow on Massimo’s response to Dan, the driver of my worry is tangential to his. I quote Aristotle: “Man is a social animal.” (Sic; that’s better than the classical translation.) Like Massimo, false belief systems that are publicly promulgated bother me because they have the potential to bother society.

    And, if we all “surrendered,” in America, we’d all be Republicans and Democrats.Or … nobody would actually worry about BDS, because that doesn’t have the power to change anything, does it?

    Liked by 1 person

  16. brodix

    King: You want me to provide for you to just sit out and stare at the stars all night, every night! Are you joking?

    Stargazer: I can read your fortune in them.

    King: Deal.

    Stargazer 1 to Stargazer 2: We need to work this up. I can tell him I need a scribe.

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  17. Robin Herbert

    Yes, talking of the predictions of aircraft engineers, and not just any old aircraft engineers.

    Here we have someone who was the Professor of Aerospace Science and Dean of Engineering at Princeton University, who has a B.S.E degree in Engineering Physics, and M.A in Physics and a Ph.D in Physics all from Princeton and who has worked on designing jet propulsion systems for NASA and is currently chairman of a company manufacturing propulsion systems for satellites and he is reporting on a study performed by a department of Princeton University’s School of Engineering and Applied Science.

    And here am I, a nobody from Sydney who didn’t even complete his maths degree, calling BS on it.

    Moreover, I am almost certainly right calling BS on it.

    That. That right there is interesting to me. How do I know that? Who am I to gainsay someone with such a wealth of scientific training and experience, someone who is clearly among the elite of the scientific world? To call BS on studies performed by Princeton’s School of Engineering and Applied Science?

    Because a professor of psychology in Canada said it was wrong? I haven’t even read Alcock on this.

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  18. Coel

    Hi michael,

    You know there is no evidence or are you just claiming there is no evidence?

    I know — to high confidence — that there is no substantial evidence for astrology. That’s because if there were we’d have heard about it by now — and that just comes from knowing how the world works. We all proceed through life with quick-look evaluators that read either “trust” or “bullshit” (or somewhere in between).

    We “trust” that a train will be safe because we’re aware from newspapers of the rough frequency of train crashes — not because we’ve done a detailed evaluation of the engineering of that particular train.

    In contrast, we can dismiss astrology, theology, telepathy, Dianetics, morphic resonance, alien visitations, psychic surgery, mediums and seances, et cetera, based purely on the poverty of the evidence presented by the believers. We really don’t need to look into them more than that. They don’t cross the threshold of deserving to be taken seriously.

    Hi Robin,

    I have seen no evidence that this is so, maybe you can supply me examples.

    The accusation that “atheism” is itself a dogmatic faith position, and that if we atheists were not dogmatists we’d be agnostics instead, is just about the most common accusation made about atheists.

    Liked by 1 person

  19. Robin Herbert

    Hi Coel,

    The accusation that “atheism” is itself a dogmatic faith position, and that if we atheists were not dogmatists we’d be agnostics instead, is just about the most common accusation made about atheists.

    That is not an uncommon thing for theists to say, but that is not what you claimed.

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  20. brodix

    Coel,

    How come when my BS detector goes off about Big Bang theory, your final response was:

    “So if your complaint is that you’d prefer the universe to work another way, with c increasing to match expanding space, then feel free to complain to God or whoever designed the universe.”

    To which I responded:

    “I assume I’m complaining to the cosmologists. If they have a direct connection to God, that would make their theories astrology based, not astronomy based..

    My complaint is that these two metrics are based on the speed and the spectrum of the very same intergalactic light. One with more units, one with expanded units.

    Your argument seems to be that they are simply two unrelated metrics. Now even if it is some eleven dimensional space and the speed and the spectrum travel through different dimensions, it is still the same light, traveling between the same points. Between those distant galaxies and our telescopes.

    Do you have an explanation for why they would not be related? Other than the cosmologists talked to God and that’s just the way it is.”

    It is a theory which has, since being proposed as an expansion of space, rather than just an expansion in space to explain why we appear as the center, required Inflation and Dark Energy, not to mention Dark Matter, to explain other deviations of observation from theory. How, if it can never be proven wrong, only just patched, is this current “cosmology” anymore than another projection of our current belief systems about how the universe should work?

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  21. Coel

    brodix,

    How come when my BS detector goes off about Big Bang theory, …

    So let’s see, your BS detector goes off given mention of the Big Bang theory, but is not giving off desperate klaxon warnings every time your mouse hovers over the “submit” button? Really?? You must have the world’s most badly calibrated BS detector!

    My complaint is that these two metrics are based on the speed and the spectrum of the very same intergalactic light.

    But they are not! This is just wrong. w-r-o-n-g. As I’ve told you eight times before. As I’ve also said, it’s not that you understand 80% of cosmology but get some of it wrong, it’s that everything you think you know about it is a confused mess of wrongity wrongness with added wrong sauce. And that’s the bits that are sufficiently coherent as to merit the label “wrong”, which most of it does not.

    How, if it can never be proven wrong, only just patched, is this current “cosmology” …

    Of course it can be proven wrong! There have been lots and lots of observations that could have proven Big Bang cosmology wrong, and yet as observations have got better and better, predictions of the BB model have been increasingly verified, and the model has come increasingly supported by evidence.

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  22. brodix

    Cool,

    That is not a coherent response to my very specific issue. Why does the BBT argue that when it comes to the spectrum of intergalactic light, the metric of space is expanding and the units are stretched, but with the speed of the very same light, the metric is not expanding, because more units are assumed to cover the same distance. As it would take light longer to cross, as the universe supposedly expands.

    If the theory is always right, why are they now looking for all the dark energy to explain why the actual observations didn’t match theory, with no apparent effort to reconsider whether the theory might be wrong?

    Massimo,

    You do say the circle should be expanded and scientism gets a little too dogmatic. Wouldn’t this be a useful case study to explore? I’m sure Coel would like to present more logical responses to a more authoritive audience than me. Or are some models just too big to question?

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  23. Coel

    brodix,

    That is not a coherent response to my very specific issue. Why does the BBT argue that when it comes to the spectrum of intergalactic light, the metric of space is expanding and the units are stretched, but with the speed of the very same light, the metric is not expanding, because more units are assumed to cover the same distance. As it would take light longer to cross, as the universe supposedly expands.

    The answer is very simple: The Big Bang theory does not say what you’ve just claimed it says! I’ve explained that to you several times before! Why do you keep asking me if you’re not going to take the slightest note of the answers?

    As I’ve told you time after time, nearly everything you think you know on this topic is a hopeless misunderstanding. You are just wrong on what you think is the cause of the redshift, and you are just wrong on what you think cosmology is claiming on this issue.

    Or are some models just too big to question?

    No model in science is too big to question. Questioning the Big Bang theory, critically examining and testing it, is exactly what generations of astrophysicists have done and are doing. But to critique a theory in a way that has any merit one needs: (1) a functioning brain, (2) some knowledge of what one is talking about, and (3) a clue.

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